The Trinity as understood in Islam and Christianity (Part 2)

The Quran forbids believers for saying Allah is one of three gods in a Trinity but then why are Christians who also believe in One God not permitted to call God Allah? The second and concluding part of this article explores whether the Bible and the Quran differ on the issue of whether Jesus Christ is the son of God.

Christians do not say that God is one of three persons or gods. Indeed Christians also believe God is One.

That this so is because of the fact that the expression “trinity” or “the trinity” is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. This is because Christians do not worship three gods. They worship only one God who was the God Abraham and his descendants worshipped, and who is the same God Jews and Muslims worship; that is why they are called People of the Book in the Quran.

But then what about the two objections in Surah 4: 171 and Surah 5: 73 of the Quran?

Surah 4: 171 provides:

Allah (far exalted is He) above having a son.

This means that Jesus is not the son of Allah.

This is what Matthew 26: 63-64 says (King James Version):

63. But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

So the answer in the Bible, Matthew 26: 63-64 above is the same as in the Quran, Surah 4, verse 171. In the Bible, Jesus never said he was the son of God. According to Matthew 26: 64 Jesus said:

. . . Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

This is also confirmed in Matthew 16 that Jesus is the Son of man, thus:

13. When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14. And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Now you know that it was Simon Peter who specifically said in Matthew 16: 16: “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” To Peter’s remark he received a sharp rebuke from Jesus in verse 17.

In Surah 5, verse 73 of the Quran it says, “They do blaspheme who say ‘Allah is Christ’.” This shows that the prohibition in the Quran is against believers saying Jesus is Allah/God.

Actually, the Bible does not say specifically that Jesus is God/Allah. Certainly, Jesus never said he is God. In Matthew 26: 64 all Jesus said was: “Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

The trinity in Christianity

Actually, the expression Trinity or Holy Trinity does not mean the worship of three persons or gods in Christianity. As I have already explained in previous articles, the word “Trinity” or “Holy Trinity” is a euphemism for God. The Oxford English Dictionary gives the meaning of the Trinity as “(in Christian belief) the three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) that make up God”. The phrase “the three persons” is used figuratively as a metaphor for God. God came to be identified euphemistically as the Father. God was also identified euphemistically as the Son. And the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost is God who came to be identified euphemistically as “God as a spirit that is active in the world”: see the Oxford English Dictionary, Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost).

But then when Christians say, “In the name of God the Father, of God the Son and of God the Holy Ghost”, they are misunderstood by our local Muslims because in Islam “Trinity” means “Allah is one of three in a Trinity”. They think that the Christians’ view of the Trinity is the same as what is forbidden in the Quran which is Allah is one of three gods in a trinity.

Let me explain what Christians really mean when they say God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost:

“God the Father” is really a euphemism for God. Just as Muslims refer to Allah as “Lord” or the Malay word “Tuhan” which are really euphemisms for Allah.

“God the Son” is a euphemism for God. Just as the Quran refers to Jesus as the son whom ‘He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him’; see Surah 4: 171, which is euphemistically identified as the “son” made by Allah because Allah cannot beget a son; see Surah 19; 35: “It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son.

Likewise, in 1 Timorthy 2: 16: “God was manifest in the flesh” was assumed to be a reference to Jesus so that the manifestation of God in the flesh means the materialization of God as a spirit who appears in visible form (in the flesh) as Jesus – similar to “a spirit proceeding from Him”; see Surah 4: 171.

1 Timothy 3: 16 reads:

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hence “God the Son” is a euphemism for God as “God was manifest in the flesh”. Scientifically a virgin birth is not possible without the hand of God. Hence “God the Son” is the manifestation of God in the flesh. On the other hand, great is the mystery of godliness, Jesus can only be the son of Mary. Hence Jesus declares that he is the Son of man.

“God the Holy Ghost or Spirit” is a euphemism for God. God is identified euphemistically as a spirit that is active in the world.

My own conclusion

This short essay on the trinity is from the Muslims’ point of view. I am sure Christians would not be upset for this misconception of the Christians’ attitude on the trinity. Besides Christians are a forgiving lot and I believe they would rather empathize with their Muslim siblings for, after all, Christians too worship the same God worshipped by Abraham Who is also the same God Jews and Muslims worship.

However, there is no doubt deviant Christians did exist up to the 13th century. It could have been rife at the time when Allah gave His revelation to Prophet Mohammed in 611 A.D. I suppose it must have all started when the pagan Roman emperor Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus, 280 – 337 A.D. (also called the Great Constantine) converted to Christianity and became the first Christian Roman emperor (306-337 A.D.).

Have you ever heard of Christians calling for a jihad or holy war since the dark ages of the crusades in medieval Christendom in the 11th-13th centuries? In those times the practices of certain Christians were somewhat deviant.

Indeed neither Napoleon or Hitler nor the European or against Hitler the American allies who fought against them waged war in the name of religion! Hitler’s senseless wholesale murder of Jews and Gypsies was uncompromising ethnic cleansing by a psychopathic mass murderer! Indeed all the world’s conflicts including World War 1 and 2 were not fought in the name of religion and none of the combatant nations in Europe, the USA and those Asian countries who were involved in those wars did either. It looks to me like only Muslims – I mean the deviant ones – are the only people who would call for a jihad or wholly war in modern times.

However, the uprisings in the Middle East appear to show a ray of hope for greater understanding and religious tolerance. For the Arab awakening and call for change were not based on religious grounds. I see Muslims and Christians calling themselves brothers among the opposition in their struggle for the cause of freedom from oppressive dictatorship under a totalitarian regime and for democracy.

NH Chan, a much respected former Court of Appeal Judge, is a gavel of justice that has no hesitation in pounding on Federal Court judges with wooden desks for heads. Retired from the Judiciary to become the People?s Judge. Wrote the explosive “Judging The Judges”, now in its 2nd edition as “How To Judge The Judges”. Once famously hinted at a possible “case match” between lawyer and judge by remarking that “something is rotten in the state of Denmark” (see Ayer Molek Rubber Company Berhad & Ors v Insas Berhad & Anor [1995] 3 CLJ 359).

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NH Chan, a much respected former Court of Appeal Judge, is a gavel of justice that has no hesitation in pounding on Federal Court judges with wooden desks for heads. Retired from the Judiciary to become the People’s Judge. Wrote the explosive “Judging The Judges”, now in its 2nd edition as “How To Judge The Judges”. Once famously hinted at a possible “case match” between lawyer and judge by remarking that “something is rotten in the state of Denmark” (see Ayer Molek Rubber Company Berhad & Ors v Insas Berhad & Anor [1995] 3 CLJ 359). We need more people like NH Chan. That is why you should buy PASOC and his book.

Posted on 10 June 2011. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0.

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35 Responses to The Trinity as understood in Islam and Christianity (Part 2)

  1. justpassinby

    Quoting NH Chan, "I suppose it must have all started when the pagan Roman emperor Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus, 280 – 337 A.D. (also called the Great Constantine) converted to Christianity and became the first Christian Roman emperor (306-337 A.D.)"

    This is where the trinity begin and not from Jesus itself. I'm not with the trinity idea no matter how Catholics tried to explain. sorry no offense. Im a Christian that believe one God who has a son called the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Philippians 2:11, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory God the Father.

    • justpassinby

      forgot to mention this

      Acts 2:36, Therefore let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you impaled.

    • arah

      My dear justpassinby,

      Do you know that Jesus was not the only son of God?

      Adam was also God's son.
      Adam, which was the son of God. Luke 3:38

      Some of God's sons had sex with women producing a race of giants.
      That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. … There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them. — Genesis 6:2-4

      Satan and his companions were sons of God.
      The sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. Job 1:6
      Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. — Job 2:1

      God's sons were present when the universe was created.
      Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? — Job 38:6-7

      Israel is my son
      And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn- Exodus 4:22

      Other God's sons.
      But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God. — John 1:12

      Peacemakers are sons of God
      Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Matthew 5.9

      They do blaspheme who say: “God is Christ the son of Mary.” They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a trinity: for there is no God except one God Allah. If they do not desist from their word of blasphemy, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Christ the son of Mary was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him.” Quran 5:72-73, 5:75 “

  2. justpassinby

    we as Christians follow what Jesus preach. Jesus didnt create the church tradition as it was called "trinity". In my faith, I want to follow God's commandment as what been preached by Jesus to the people and his own disciple and not based on tradition by men. Jesus indeed son of God, he is the messiah.

    John 8:42 , Jesus said to them: "If God were your Father, you would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth"

    God is not three persons.
    Deuteronomy 6:4 , Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one

    John 20:17, Jesus said to her: " Stop clinging on me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God' "

  3. Audrey

    "Actually, the Bible does not say specifically that Jesus is God/Allah. Certainly, Jesus never said he is God. In Matthew 26: 64 all Jesus said was: “Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

    Hmm.
    Verses from the Bible should only be quoted within context. Verse 64 in its entirety actually records Jesus' response to the question of whether He is the Son of God as "You have said so." If you go on to just the very next verse from here, verse 65 (since this is a narrative of what transpired during Jesus' arrest/trial) makes it clear that Jesus WAS claiming to be God. The response of the high priest was to tear his robes and say of Jesus, "He has uttered blasphemy". What blasphemy was this if they did not feel Jesus was equating Himself with God? In fact Jesus Christ was in fact claiming to be divine, but incarnate in human form by affirming that He is the Son of God, and concurrently stating that He is also the "Son of Man".

    In the gospel of John, chapter 5 (particularly verse 18,) it is recorded that these Jewish leaders were "seeking all the more to kill him, because…he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God." The Jews understood perfectly that to claim God as Father was to claim an equal status and nature. The essence of a son is that of his father. Hence there is no "euphemistic" business here. The Jews understood perfectly what Jesus' words meant.
    May the rest of us understand this better too.

  4. arah

    Part 6
    Sunan Abu Dawud Book 37, Number 4310:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    The Prophet (pbuh) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that
    is, Jesus (pbuh). He will descend (to the earth). When you see him,
    recognize him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light
    yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head
    though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of
    Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizya. Allah
    will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist
    and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The
    Muslims will pray over him.

  5. arah

    Part 5
    Book 030, Number 5836:

    Abu Huraira reported many ahadith from Allah's Messenger (pbuh) and
    one is that Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said: I am most close to Jesus,
    son of Mary, among the whole of mankind in this worldly life and the
    next life. They said: Allah's Messenger how is it? Thereupon he said:
    Prophets are brothers in faith, having different mothers. Their
    religion is, however, one and there is no Apostle between us (between
    I and Jesus Christ).

  6. arah

    Part 4
    Volume 4, Book 55, Number 658:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    Allah's Apostle said "How will you be when the son of Mary (i.e.
    Jesus) descends amongst you and he will judge people by the Law of the
    Quran and not by the law of Gospel (Fateh-ul Bari page 304 and 305 Vol
    7)

    Sahih Muslim Book 030, Number 5834:

    Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (pbuh) as saying: I am most
    akin to the son of Mary among the whole of mankind and the Prophets
    are of different mothers, but of one religion, and no Prophet was
    raised between me and him (Jesus Christ).

  7. arah

    Part 3

    Volume 4, Book 55, Number 657:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, surely
    (Jesus,) the son of Mary will soon descend amongst you and will judge
    mankind justly (as a Just Ruler); he will break the Cross and kill the
    pigs and there will be no Jizya (i.e. taxation taken from non
    Muslims). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it,
    and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the
    whole world and whatever is in it." Abu Huraira added "If you wish,
    you can recite (this verse of the Holy Book): — 'And there is none Of
    the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) But must believe in
    him (i.e. Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) Before his
    death. And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness Against
    them." (4.159) (See Fateh Al Bari, Page 302 Vol. 7)

  8. arah

    Part 2
    Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 651:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "I am the nearest of all the people to
    the son of Mary, and all the prophets are paternal brothers, and there
    has been no prophet between me and him (i.e. Jesus)."

    Volume 4, Book 55, Number 652:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    Allah's Apostle said, "Both in this world and in the Hereafter, I am
    the nearest of all the people to Jesus, the son of Mary. The prophets
    are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion
    is one."

  9. arah

    Hadith by Prophet Muhammad about Jesus

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 34, Number 425:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary
    (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just
    ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya
    (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the
    Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no-body
    will accept charitable gifts.

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 43, Number 656:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son
    of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will
    break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will
    be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).

  10. arah

    One Borneo.
    Why you didn't answer my simple questions?
    " I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

    Why Paul or Saul the Murderer abolished the laws?

    • Oneborneo

      Dear Arah,
      I have already answered your question by my reply. because of space constrain in the reply form, i told you to read up the reference quoted carefully that explain why the Law (it reveals our sinful nature that is incapable of obeying) has been replaced by Jesus with grace (kasih kurnia). None of us can fullly obey the Law, e.g. we may not commit adultery with a woman but when we entertain lustful thoughts about her we already commit adultery. Jesus was making a point that we are incapable of obeying the Law if we are not more righteous than the Pharisees. Even the Pharisees also could not enter the kingdom of heaven if they couldnt EXCEED their own righteouness which obviously they couldnt and nobody could.

      • Oneborneo

        The Law, which is God's standard of righteousness cannot be disregarded or obeyed partailly. It demands 100% obedience. Sin has to be punished even the minutest of it. We still go to hell even if we obeyed 99.99% of it. It is against this backdrop that Jesus said in Matthew 5 … I have not come to abolish the Law BUT to fulfill them. It must be enforced, even to the least stroke of pen. Here Jesus is saying the standard of God's righteous required upon us will be met. How? By his sacrifice on the cross. God already demonstrated this concept long ago before Jesus came like Abraham sacrificing Isaac but God replace it with a lamb to take his place. God was teaching the Israelites this concept when He instruct sins must be atoned with sacrifies of animals.

        • Oneborneo

          Paul was explaining this concept in the book of Hebrew. Paul DID NOT abolished the law. It was Jesus who replace it by Himself meeting all the requirements of the Law on our behalf. The Law tells us that the wages of sins (the consequences) is death. Death in the sense that we are separated from God which the source of life and die spiritually since we are disconnected from God who is Spirit. The consequences of sin also bring upon us phsical death, we will all die a a physical death. But now that problem is taken care of by Jesus and He is offering each one of us this better way called grace – salvation by grace (not through the law). Grace is God's gift which we dont deserved but given to us for free and cannot be earned or work for. This is what Paul was explaining in the book of Hebrews. That is why it is called a GOOD NEWS. If we have to perform for it, it is not Good News but Bad News because Jesus already demonstrated to us in Matthew 5 that we are completely unable to perform up to par.

          • Oneborneo

            You see Arah, the key to understand Matthew 5:17-20 is in this sentence, "I have not come to abolish them BUT to FULFILL them." The example of the Pharisee (the most religious people) serve to illustrate the point that none of us is capable of obeying the Law fully, not even the Pharisee because they too are not capable of exceeding their own righteousness. It is in this context that Jesus was saying He will FULfill it, on our behalf. Sin came through one man, Adam but God provide the solution for righteousness through one man, Jesus. You and I cannot attain our own righteousness as illustrated by the example of the Pharisee but righteousness is now offered to us in Jesus as opposed to remaining in sin through Adam.

          • Oneborneo

            Since Jesus already fulfilled the law for us there is no need for us to get right with God through the Law. This is what Paul was explaining in Hebrew. There is no contradiction and Paul did not abolish the law as you said. Obeying the Law is impossible since we inherit sin nature. This is what the law does, it tells us we are sinful people incapable of saving ourselves by our own effort. A better way has now come, through the one perfect sacrifice of the sinless Jesus for us. And we need to accept what Jesus had done to be right with God. This is why His dying on the cross is necessary which God planned at the beginning of time and He unfolded His plan by teaching & demonstrating it trough the act of KORBAN in the days of Abraham and later Moses with the Israelites. No need for Hari Raya Korban anymore. Celebrate Jesus the perfect korban for us.

  11. OneBorneo

    Dear all,

    As we continue with this discussion as to who is Isa, let us remember that God/Allah is unlimited and human being is limited. Our created capacity later corrupted by sin is limited in our quest to understand our Creator. It will require an unlimited capacity without the constraint of time and space to comprehend the unlimited God/Allah. We will have to become God ourselves to be able to comprehend everything about God. However, what is necessary for us to know with regards to our relationship with God/Allah has been revealed to us progressively over time from Adam and completed in Isa. This revelation must be seen in the context of God/Allah’s love for people. The Bible/Alkitab(The Book) is God/Allah’s love story (kasih not cinta)for the fallen men and it is within this context that one will understand the true identity of Isa. It will also require spiritual discernment because spiritual things are to be spiritually discerned. No amount of scholarly debate will help unless we hunger for the truth and seek God/Allah to help us understand. One can be very knowledgeable about the Bible but still miss the truth. Isa and the cross are a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Greeks but the foolishness of God/Allah is wiser than men and the weakness of God/Allah is stronger than men. God had chosen the foolish and weak things of the world to confound the wise and mighty so that the glory goes to Him.

    Below is an extract from Y-Jesus.com which you can check out for further understanding of our discussion.

    Did Jesus Claim to be the God of Abraham & Moses?

    Jesus continually referred to himself in ways that confounded his listeners. As Piper notes, Jesus made the audacious statement, “Before Abraham was, I AM.”11 He told Martha and others around her, “I AM the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he is dead, yet shall he live.”12 Likewise, Jesus would make statements like, “I AM the light of the world,”13 “I AM the only way to God,”14 or, “I AM the “truth.”15 These and several other of his claims were preceded by the sacred words for God, “I AM” (ego eimi)16. What did Jesus mean by such statements, and what is the significance or the term, “I AM”?

    Once again, we must go back to context. In the Hebrew Scriptures, when Moses asked God His name at the burning bush, God answered, “I AM.” He was revealing to Moses that He is the one and only God who is outside of time and has always existed. Incredibly, Jesus was using these holy words to describe himself. The question is, “Why?”

    Since the time of Moses, no practicing Jew would ever refer to himself or anyone else by “I AM.” As a result, Jesus’ “I AM” claims infuriated the Jewish leaders. One time, for example, some leaders explained to Jesus why they were trying to kill him: “Because you, a mere man, have made yourself God.”17

    Jesus’ usage of God’s name greatly angered the religious leaders. The point is that these Old Testament scholars knew exactly what he was saying—he was claiming to be God, the Creator of the universe. It is only this claim that would have brought the accusation of blasphemy. To read into the text that Jesus claimed to be God is clearly warranted, not simply by his words, but also by their reaction to those words.

    C. S. Lewis initially considered Jesus a myth. But this literary genius who knew myths well, concluded that Jesus had to have been a real person. Furthermore, as Lewis investigated the evidence for Jesus, he became convinced that not only was Jesus real, but he was unlike any man who had ever lived. Lewis writes,

    “Then comes the real shock,’ wrote Lewis: ‘Among these Jews there suddenly turns up a man who goes about talking as if He was God. He claims to forgive sins. He says He always existed. He says He is coming to judge the world at the end of time.”18

    To Lewis, Jesus’ claims were simply too radical and profound to have been made by an ordinary teacher or religious leader. (For a more in-depth look at Jesus’ claim to deity, see “Did Jesus Claim to be God?” http://www.y-jesus.com/jesus_believe_god_1.php).

    • arah

      OneBorneo

      Please explain the following and why they contradicted?

      Matthew 5:17-20
      "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

      Hebrews 7:18-19

      The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

      Which bible is your reference? Which church did you attended?

      • Oneborneo

        Dear Arah,

        I'm happy to give you some directions. There is no contradiction betwen these two references. I suggest you continue reading Hebrews chapter 7 till chapter 10. Pay attention to chapter 9:11-28 & chapter10:1-18. From here you will understand what Jesus meant in Matt 5:17-20. He fulfilled the Law by meeting all the requirements punishable under the Law on our behalf by dying on the cross. The law remained in force (Matt 5:18) until He accomplished all the requirements upon his death. That is why now we have a better hope (Heb 7:19) by way of his sacrifice for us. None of us exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees (Matt 5:20) and are doomed. Our only hope is Jesus who paid on our behalf the penalty of our sins by His sacrificial death.

  12. Arm_Real

    the more u try to dig (for non muslim) about trinity, the more you got confused and the more you show how ignorant u are, as what happen to the new testatment and the rogiginal book of Injil. I think, it is beneficial for us to watch the debate between Syeikh Ahmad Deedad and your big Pastors, then u can understand better on the topic of trinity, even whheter there is trinity in Christianity. then u can see the difference between the original injil and the new testament.. and think and think and think.. ad i must compliment the late syekh ahmad deedad, who memorised each and every verses of the bible, torah etc.

    So, lets us watch the debate..

  13. sam1528

    Adam ,

    Nobody is forcing anything. However you have made a big mistake (identical to judge chan) in Quran5:116. The part verse is '..in derogation of Allah..' meaning to disparage / belittle Allah. There is no mention of trinity. The arabic word in Quran5:116 is 'min dooni' from the root word 'min dun' meaning 'not including' / 'excluding' / 'apart from'.

    You should be aware that the doctrine of trinity states that they are co equal. How can Quran5:116 describe trinity?

    The list from 'one borneo'? There is nothing that states of Prophet Isa(as) being god.

    The muslim disagreement regarding the trinity has been consistent for past 1400 yrs. In layman terms the disagreement (part of it) as follows

    (1) Allah has no partners or co equals

    (2) 3 cannot be 1

    I will substitute 'god' with 'fully god' to amplify the argument

    triune godhead (trinity) = 'fully god' comprising of

    (a) father = 'fully god'

    (b) son = 'fully god'

    (c) holy spirit = 'fully god'

    You have 3 'fully gods' , each 'fully god' co equal , distinct from each other.

    How can 3 'fully gods' become 1 'fully god'? By attesting them being co equal and distinct from each other , its already ascribing partners to Allah. In the NT , only the father alone is god therefore we can safely assume father = god = Allah in the NT.

    Its no use going thru scriptures (bible / Quran) to justify the trinity. There is no mention of it in the bible and the Quran denounce it.

    It better to just say whether the muslims like it or not , the christians have every right to address their god 'Allah' as this has been the practice for more than 1400 yrs. Allah is not the monopoly of muslims.

  14. Adam

    Gimpy,

    Muslims do not believe in the Trinity because the Koran describes the Trinity as Allah, Isa and Mary. Christians also would not believe that.

    Christians believe that God has sent His "Son" Isa through virgin birth to preach His Word and then die for our sins instead of us having to sacrifice animals like in the Korban. After Isa was resurrected, He then sent His Holy Spirit to comfort and dwell in those who believe.

    Perhaps, with this change in the concept of the Trinity, Muslims could re-examine the role of Isa in the scheme of salvation. A good start would be to look at the Koran verses as indicated by OneBorneo above and see where that would lead you and God willing, it may take you to a journey of discovery…or not.

    Faith is between one and his Maker and can never be forced. The seed of belief is always there in all of us. Whether it could germinate and grow is also up to us…and our Maker.

  15. gimpy

    Muslims do not believe in the Trinity. You can see the youtube video here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If_U01UebsY&fe

  16. Adam

    Dear OneBorneo,

    Thank you for taking the time to pen down these references. I will definitely go through them and hopefully I could find further conviction of my belief. It is praiseworthy to point people to what one believes in, with understanding and with references. It is up to people to search for the "truth" for themselves.

    At the end of the day or at the end of one's life, we have to ask ourselves whether the life we lead has been a worthwhile one and not one full of regrets. For now, I would also ask what if what I believe now were not the truth, would my life still be well lived?

    God bless.

  17. OneBorneo

    Dear all,

    Before I list out the references about Isa from the Bible, here are the list from the Quran about Isa. The Bible teaches the dual nature of Isa (God & man). As you go through the list you can pick out the references that speaks of Him in His Godly or human nature.

    References to Isa in the Qur’an

    1. Isa spoke from Mary's womb

    • 5:110, 19:24, 19:29-33

    2. Isa was conceived supernaturally through a virgin named Mary; spoken into being [fayakun] and by the breath or spirit of Allah [Ruh al-qudis Allah] or Holy Spirit

    • 2:87, 2:253, 3:47, 3:59, 5:110, 19:20 ., 21:29, 66:12

    3. Isa is of Allah's Spirit [Ruh ana Allah]

    • 19:17, 21:29, 21:91, 66:12

    4. Isa is a Spirit of/from Allah [Ruh minhu from Allah]

    • 4:171

    5. Isa, a son pure, without sin [zakiyyah]

    • 3:38, 19:19

    6. Isa had no vanity or wickedness

    • 19:32

    7. Isa is righteous [saliheen]

    • 3:46, 6:85

    8. Isa called the messiah

    • 3:45, 4:157, 4:171, 4:172, 5:17 (twice), 5:72 (twice), 5:75, 9:30, 9:31

    9. Isa is the gospel or good news

    • 3:45

    10. Isa is considered a mediator [wajih; other than in reference to Moses, this is the only use of the term wajih in the entire Qur'an]

    • 3:45

    11. Isa as intercessor [shafa'a; this is as an exclusive right of Allah, who may pass it down to whomever he likes]

    • 2:255, 21:28

    12. Isa is noble [wagihan] now and hereafter [wagihn or wajih also means “noble and exalted”]

    • 6:85

    13. Isa breathed life into clay

    • 3:49, 5:110

    14. Isa the word of Allah [kalimat Allah]

    • 3:39, 3:45, 4:171

    15.Isa the word of truth

    • 19:34

    16.Isa the tidings of things unseen (supernatural)

    • 3:44

    17.Only two things sent from heaven, Isa and the Holy Book

    • 5:15, 5:114, 5:115

    18.Isa strengthened/led [ayyada] by the Holy Spirit [Ruh Qudus]

    • 2:87, 2:253, 5:110

    19.Allah's favor was on him [Isa]

    • 43:59, 5:110

    20.Isa was given revelation from Allah

    • 2:136, 3:59, 19:30

    21.Allah revealed his will to Isa

    • 4:163

    22.Isa a mercy from Allah

    • 19:21

    23.Isa had power to raise the dead

    • 3:49, 5:110

    24.Isa a clear sign [be-yinat, meaning “clear and without doubt”] unto men (all mankind)

    • 2:87, 3:49–50, 5:115, 19:21, 21:93, 43:61

    25.Isa showed clear signs [be-yinat] of Allah

    • 2:253, 5:110, 43:63

    26.Allah gave clear miracles to Isa

    • 2:253

    27.Isa healed the sick and lepers

    • 3:49, 5:110

    28.Isa died [mutawafeka, rooted in wafat and amutu]

    • 3:55, 4:159, 5:117, 19:33

    29.Isa resurrected from the dead [yum uba'athu]

    • 2:72–73, 19:33

    30.Isa present at Resurrection Day [yum al-qiyama]

    • 3:55, 4:159

    31.Isa ascended up to Allah in heaven

    • 3:55, 4:158

    32.Isa coming back to judge the world

    • 3:55, 4:159, 4:173, 43:61

    33.Isa a sign of the hour of judgment

    • 43:61

    34.Isa near to Allah [mugarrabeen, a special place of honor]

    • 3:45

    35.Allah blessed Isa wherever he was

    • 19:31

    36.Isa given wisdom of the Old Testament and gospel

    • 3:48, 3:110, 19:30

    37.Isa had the favor of Allah

    • 43:59

    38.Isa a servant and prophet of Allah

    • 4:172, 19:30

    39.Isa miraculously brings food to earth from heaven

    • 5:112–118

    40.Isa a straight (right) path

    • 43:61

    41.Isa a witness for Allah

    • 4:159, 5:117

    42.Allah made a covenant with Isa

    • 33:7

    43.Isa an apostle

    • 4:157, 4:71, 5:75

    44.Isa an example to the children of Israel

    • 43:59

    45.Angels near to Isa

    • 4:172

    46.Isa coming to attest the law

    • 3:50

    47.Isa like (is the second) Adam

    • 3:59

    48.Isa is the right path to follow

    • 43:61

    49.Isa inspired disciples [al-hawariyun] to have faith in Allah

    • 5:111

    50.Disciples of Isa have power over their enemies

    • 61:14

    51.We are ordered to obey Isa

    • 3:50, 4:159, 5:111, 43:61, 43:63

    52.Isa came with wisdom (authority) of Allah

    • 43:63

    53.Ordered to follow Isa

    • 3:44, 43:61

    54.Followers of Isa superior

    • 3:55

    55.Disciples are Allah's helpers of the revelation of Isa

    • 3:52, 61:14

    56.Disciples are witnesses to the truth of Isa

    • 5:113

    57.Followers of Isa acceptable (true believers) to Allah

    • 18:10, 57:27, 85:4

  18. Adam

    Now, I know why Muslims think that the Trinity consists of God, Jesus and Mary. It is stated in the Koran. By this 2-part article, Muslims would now know that the Trinity is actually God(the Father), Jesus (the Son or Word) and the Holy Spirit.

    BTW, although it is expected that Loyarburok should air more articles on law, it is ok to throw in other issues of interest. For those looking for legal issues only, they could go to the Bar Council or other legal websites. Or like me, just skip those articles not in my interest.

  19. AAkmal

    "a spirit proceeding from Him"; see Surah 4: 171. 'sprit' in this ayat not telling spirit God that given to Jesus BUT God create Jesus sprit same like normal person; God create us.

    So dangerous dicuss religion

    lain kali topik lainlah….

  20. camcam

    Loyarburuk

    I agree with the comment below by:

    Catalina Rembuyan on 11 June, 2011 at 7:03 am

    Sigh.

    Loyarburok, with all due respect, I really wish that you spend more efforts on issues that drew me to the Loyarburok site — law — rather than entertain armchair theology.

    (I would add: articles on sex, porn etc.) You have wasted my internet time clicking on to your site)

  21. Catalina Rembuyan

    Sigh. 

    Loyarburok, with all due respect, I really wish that you spend more efforts on issues that drew me to the Loyarburok site — law — rather than entertain armchair theology. 

    This is not to say that religious matters are out of discussion. Matters like religious rights, freedom, how much authority ought to be given to religious law — all of this is relevant. But a discussion of the Trinity has no relevant impact at all on any legal systems or issues that I know of, and is a very lengthy and tiring theological discussion.

    Yes, NH Chan's article is deeply theologically flawed. The doctrine of the Trinity is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, but it is part of the early Church's traditions, along with the worship on Sunday and the institutionalizing of the priesthood. It was cemented as a doctrine in one of the Church councils, against the Arian movement. The Trinity is alluded to in certain passages of Scripture, notably the Gospel of John. 

    Also, while the Trinity is not explicitly mentioned in Scripture, but it is mentioned in the creeds, another early source of Christian teaching. Liturgical churches, such as the Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran churches still recite the creed. Many non-liturgical churches (eg. If their name is 'evangelical free' or 'community church' do not). I consider this a pity. 

    Honestly, this is just the beginning — I have participated in Christian forums and there can be easily 100 comments on the nature of the Trinity. It is a very contentious, and sometimes painful issue because it involves the interpretation of historical events as well as matters written in a holy book (I am referring to the Arian controversy and the Protestant Reformation, which I think did a lot of harm by downplaying other sources of doctrine and over emphasizing Scripture.) 

     It is precisely for this reason that I would rather the focus of Loyarburok be directed away from a discussion about the nature of a deity and more towards the practical matters on Earth. It matters very little, on practical issues, if someone is Trinitarian, Unitarian, Binitarian, or believes in the Spaghetti thing. What matters in Christian-Muslim interaction in Malaysia has very little to do with understanding orthodox religious theology and more to do with legal issues that are grounded on basic ethics universal to all human beings and which any legal system must strive to reflect.

  22. sam1528

    Judge Chan ,

    I think you are going around in circles. St Augustine on the 'trinity' : “Whoever denies the Trinity is in danger of losing his salvation; whoever tries understanding the Trinity is in danger of losing his mind.”

    Your argument of

    – "God the Father" is really a euphemism for God

    – "God the Son" is a euphemism for God

    does not work (for the moment we will not focus on the holy spirit).

    Jesus and the father are 2 separate beings. The following biblical verses provides such context

    (1) mat5:2 , jesus states '..your sins are forgiven..' and not '..I forgive your sins..'. In the jewish context , this implies that god has forgiven the man as evidence in mat5:8 that the people '..praised God, who had given such authority to man..'.

    (2) They do not even share the same essence as jesus and the father are 2 witnesses , joh8:18 '..I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”..'

    (3) They have 2 separate wills although jesus submitted his will to the father. luk22:42 '..Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done..'. 2 separate wills means 2 separate individuals.

    (4) They are 2 separate beings as 1 spirit can be placed into the hands of another , luk23:46 '..Father, into your hands I commit my spirit..'.

    (5) Jesus is subordinate to the father as he knelt down and prayed to the father , luk22:41.

    Interestingly , jesus attested that the father is the only 1 true god and he is sent by god.

    joh17:3 '..that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent..' – the biblical definition of eternal life.

    Substituting god with Allah

    joh17:3 '..that they know you, the only true Allah, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent..'

    Compare that with the sahadah

    '..There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of God..'

    Sound similar??

    Jihad is not 'holy war'. The arabic transliteration of 'holy war' is 'harbul mukhadassar'. There is no such word in the Quran nor hadith.

    'Holy war' was a christian invention. It was the rallying call of Pope Urban II in 1096 along with the promise of absolution and remission of sins for those who died in the war.

  23. In Matthew 16:16 Peter says to Jesus, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

    Jesus did not sharply rebuke Peter for his confession. Rather, Jesus called Peter blessed.

    I think you have misread the passage.

    For the Christian view of the Trinity, check out:

    Trinith, Tawheed, and Monotheism

  24. OneBorneo

    If one were to extract all the references in the Quran concerning Isa, it is no surprise to notice the similarities with Christian cults’ teaching in existence that time. These were the deadly teaching of the cults that the apostle Paul warned about. In part the Roman Catholic institution is responsible in impressing upon the public the elevated status of Mary which gives the wrong perception that she is the mother of God. It is also to be noted that Islamic rituals such as purifying oneself before prayer is similar to the Catholics practice of signing the cross upon oneself with holy water upon entry to the place of worship. A practising Muslim PHD holder also shared this observation.

    Summary of the major cult heresies are as follow:-

    The Ebionites – denied Isa’s deity.

    The Gnostics – denied Isa’s humanity.

    The Arians – taught that Isa’s was a created being.

    The Appollinarians – denied the completeness of Christ human nature.

    The Nestorians – denied the union of the two natures in Isa, reducing Him to a man filled with God.

    The Eutychians – denied the distinction of the two natures of Christ, thus making a third hybrid nature of the two.

    The Monophysites – denied the two nature and wills in the one person of Christ.

    These heresies were prevalent those days represented by Jewish settlers even in Arabia. One of the Muslim prophet’s wives (Aishah) was of this origin. It is not too far- fetched to say that she influenced his wrong doctrine. Therefore I am sorry to say that the wrong term of reference used to determine who Isa is will result in wrong conclusion. What one believes about Isa will determine how one relates to Him and this will determine one’s eternal destiny. The correct document to use is the Bible. Since the New Testament is perceived as altered by Muslim I shall extract all the references concerning Isa from the Old Testament in my next posting.

  25. Benedict Jeremy Laza

    Can i Have a Free T-shirt