[UPDATED] Police Intimidation Video: What Happened Before

1. reality?

   how many of you have been asked for a bribe?

   how many of you have been wrongly arrested?

   how many of you have been involved in peaceful gatherings only to be abused?

   how many of you have been spoken rudely to by ppl in authority.

   how many of you are afraid of cops for no apparent reason?

   is this the reality that you are asked to accept? its easy to sit behind a pc in the comfort of one's own home especially if things have been handed to you on silver platter and one is the recipient of preferential treatment and freebies and comment and criticise others.

   some would say they have never received such. i say bullshit. it is already in the system that it is impossible not to receive it. it has become so ingrained and natural that it has become unnoticeable and accepted as part and parcel of malaysian life.

   most ppl are influenced by their past REAL experiences and their feelings would be justified. eg if one has been attacked by a dog before, he/she would certainly be afraid of all dogs

2. It is not a stipulation for a convert to go bonkers. A psychiatrist friend says it (going bonkers, not conversion)results from emotional breakdown, which results from failure in life, which results from character defects, which result from having sold for poor returns, which results from emotional disturbance. So it goes in a vicious circle.

   I am not a psychiatrist and do not understand the links between angry words, graphic sexual descriptions and being a descendent of Tan Cheng Lock. Pampampuki, despite his crudity, is less defective than AR because his obsession with expletives is spiced with hahaha, etc. I guess he is Malay but AR is neither here nor there. And two bribe-taking cops are responsible for this (my case, not Pam's case).

3. Actually, if I recall, my conversation with the two traffic policemen went something like this.

   P: Dato, kenapa kau pigi dudok singapore, bagus ka sana?

   S: Aya, encik, saya bukan dato, encik saja. Buat niaga, lah, sana.

   P: Oi, towkay orang kaya, buat niaga apa?

   S: Perabot lama, perabot dari negeri Cina, yang lama empat, lima ratus tahun.

   P: Ya ke? Macam perabot Melaka? Itu negeri Cina pandai buat niaga. Macam, macam barang ada.

   S: Ya, sekarang komunis lebih pandai buat niaga, hehehe.

   P: Tapi towkay bukan komunis, pandai niaga juga, hehehe.

   S: Sikit lah, sikit. Kampong encik di Melaka ka?

   P: Tidak, ada saudara sana lah.

   P: Towkay orang kaya, datang KL temu perempuan ke?

   S: Aiya, sudah tua lah, mana perempuan mahu.

   P: Ay, I/C towkay tunjuk usia 45 saja, muda lagi, macam 35 saja.

   S: Aiya, sudah tua, itu tak boleh buat lagi.

   P: Ay, badan dato sehat lagi, kaya juga, mesti boleh, hehehe.

   S: Kadang kadang ada cuba, sikit, hehehe.

   P: Dato mahu beli ka? Kita boleh buat niaga.

   S: Beli apa, encik?

   P: Aiya, Tongkat Ali lah. Towkay boleh guna, boleh niaga juga, hehehe. Saya boleh bagi harga istimewa, tak mahal.

   S: Aiyo, tak boleh. Bini marah saya, hehehe.

   P: Towkay, tak apa itu, girlfren mesti suka, buat itu kuat.

   S: Betul ke, hehehe?

   P: Betul, mesti betul. Pisang mas pun jadi jagong, hehehe.

   And so it went. On hindsight, I guess they wanted to take a ride in my mercs. Should have taken a snapshot or video, come to think of it.

4. And they were complaining about the lack of nightlife here? Minister Yen Yen, do you know what potential danger EVERYONE, even more so Muslims from religious police has to deal with now for being in a pub or hotel during a raid? Why should anyone vote for BN and the APARTHEID faction?

5. one day those who criticise what pam did and will not stand up to the cops hopefully it wont happen to you what happened to this person who recounted his story in mkini:

   What started out as a regular night for a friend, whom I shall call Jack, and I, turned into something ugly. We and two dozen others were detained, handcuffed, jailed, degraded, stripped, extorted and shamed.

   This is a story of corruption and police abuse.

   It was a drug bust at a famous night club in Sri Hartamas, Kuala Lumpur. An incident that all of us, later proved innocent by hospital chemical tests, will never forget.

   The entry (Sept 24 – 10.30pm)

   It was a great day, in fact, a great week, I was looking forward to this weekend. Nothing special, just a night out for a glass of wine and to Soda, a popular club in the area. Nothing could have forewarned me of the humiliation that awaited.

   Soda (12pm)

   After the wine, we made our way to Soda. Some other friends were already there. We had a few more drinks, enjoyed the music and the company.

   The raid (2am)

   Came out from the washroom and there was a policeman on the microphone. It was a drug bust, he announced and nobody could leave until urine samples were taken and tested. Fine I thought. No problem, just quickly take my urine and get it tested so I could go out and grab something to eat.

   Problem is, there were a few hundred of us in the club and they did the test 10 at a time. From the time of the raid, it would end up taking them more than two hours to check all of us.

   My turn came and I did as instructed, urinated into the plastic container and handed it over for the ‘on-the-spot’ test. They dropped the container in the instant tester, left it in for about a minute. The result showed that I had tested positive for five of the six drugs on the list. I knew this was a mistake so naturally I remained calm.

   I was then herded into a cordoned off area and had to wait till 7am for the police truck to pick us up. While waiting, we requested for a re-test but this was denied.

   We were told that our urine samples were to be taken to a hospital laboratory for conclusive tests.

   The pick up (7am)

   After a long wait, the truck finally arrived at 7am. We were not told anything, we did not know what was going to happen. And when they did tell us, the policemen came out with different answers.

   We got into the truck. It was degrading because we were law abiding citizens who had never done anything wrong, except probably speeding on the highway. And here we were, being herded into a police truck used for rounding up bad hats.

   We were taken to the Kuala Lumpur police headquarters and made to sit on the floor until 11am. We were treated rudely, one policeman had even threatened to beat a fellow detainee. Mind you, we were all proved innocent in the end and these policemen in the narcotics department treated us like convicts and did not entertain any questions. We did not know our rights, we were not informed of our rights and the police took advantage of that.

   We were later told to sign a document. When I tried to read the document, I was told off by a policeman. “No need to read the document,” he said. “Just sign!” Still in disbelief over what was happening but confident that it will be settled by the afternoon, I signed.

   Till this day, I do not know what I signed.

   At 11am we were again herded back into the blue truck. I did not know where they were taking us.

   Pudu Jail (11am)

   The truck took us to Pudu jail, the disused facility, which once housed murderers, rapists and drug dealers. This building was not built to house people like us. Think of your saddest moment, where your heart sinks and your spirit dies, and you would be able to relate to how we felt.

   Most of us were still in denial. We still thought that everything will be fine and that we will be out soon.

   We were placed in the prison yard and made to sit in rows of three. We had not eaten or drank since last night, but we were not hungry. Then a policeman showed up, a good ‘samaritan’. He offered us some bread and water and proceeded to collect RM10 from all of us. That would mean RM200 plus.

   A few hours later we were put in handcuffs. Imagine being in a handcuff, chained together with all the others and led out into the street.

   We were herded once again into a truck and brought before a magistrate.

   The magistrate (1pm or so)

   The magistrate was at the Cheras police station, we were told there that there was no chance for bail because it was a Sunday and the court was not open. I voiced my objection and requested for a re-test for obvious reasons. We were told that the magistrate was powerless to act on anything. All they did was read to us that we were suspected drug addicts and that we will be remanded for 12 days until a court date or bail was set. This was Monday at the earliest.

   The entire proceeding was held while we were still in handcuffs and chained together. I was later told that when I left the room the lady magistrate had remarked, “All these rich kids, they are all like that”.

   Even the magistrate was blissfully ignorant of what was happening and had decided on our guilt before a trial.

   The proceeding was over within an hour and we were once again herded into the blue police truck.

   Back to jail (2pm – till the next day)

   We are back in jail. Shortly after, we were called to sit on the prison pavement again to wait for our prison clothes. Names were called out individually. Each person was called into a room to collect our prison clothes. It was a simple process yet took a long time. I did not know why until some of the accused came out of the room.

   While in the room, the police offered a cigarette in apparent goodwill. So some of them took the offer. With such frayed nerves, anything was welcomed to help take the pain away. After the accused took the cigarette, RM10 was taken out of their wallets. A robbery had taken place, and the robbers were the policemen, and they were walking free… in jail.

   They couldn’t steal from me though. Simply because I had no cash. I had passed them to Jack’s mother when she came earlier. So naturally they did not offer me a cigarette.

   Prison clothes consisted of only a pair of track pants. Just a single piece. No shirt, no underwear and no shoes. We were to stay in prison with nothing else but a pair of pants.

   When we made our way through the walkway into the main prison compound, we were in shock. All the prisons you have seen on TV were nothing compared to the horrid conditions of Pudu jail. Everybody in prison was frail thin and bony. The only fat people were the policemen. We were told to put our belongings into a cell and leave them there, we were then made to strip naked and squat in front of the other inmates. I had never done anything wrong in my life, why was I being treated this way?!! It was degrading. It angered me.

   After that was out of the way, we were put six to a cell, measuring 2m by 3m. There were no beds, no toilet and no ventilation. Just concrete walls and a concrete platform. If you wanted to urinate, you had to do it in a bottle inside the cell.

   It was now almost 6pm and all we had for three-quarter’s of a day was a small piece of bread and a small bottle of mineral water. Food finally came. It was indescribable. A pack of rice with a salted fish head measuring no more than 4cm and two pieces of vegetable no larger than a 50 sen coin. It was just meant to keep you alive. Just barely alive.

   We just sat there for the rest of our stay, being let out only to bathe and defecate three times a day for 10 minutes. Some took the situation harder than me. Somehow, the anger had numbed me. So I joked and we talked, just to diffuse the situation and to allow ourselves to forget this experience.

   Then there was more daylight robbery and corruption. We were told that our relatives could visit and that they could bring food and other condiments and supplies to us… for a price! Yes… they were asking for money even in jail. RM150 must be paid to them so the items could be brought in.

   However, that does not guarantee that the items will reach us. I had friends whose relatives paid the police for the food to be brought in. A whole bucket of fried chicken was reduced to three pieces and a burger. Not only were the police corrupt, but they were sadistic and sick enough to eat the prisoners’ food. Why they were all fat was no longer a mystery.

   Not only did we have to bribe them for food, but a single phone call cost RM150, which must be paid by the visiting relative or friend. Jack got away with RM50, supposedly credited to the policeman’s pre-paid line by his mother. Somehow the policeman missed it and even dared to SMS Jack’s mother after we got out, asking ‘where’s the money’. Not only was it daylight robbery, it was daring and I guess he must have felt invincible while wearing the police badge.

   Take note that none of our parents or relatives were informed that we were being held. We had to personally call them.

   We spent the night in prison, sleeping on our bare backs on the cold damp concrete floor. The air was stale, there were other inmates yelling ‘tolong..tolong’ (help…help).

   It was a dreadful and excruciatingly slow night. All we had was each other.

   The courthouse (Sept 26 – 8am)

   Morning came and a large group of our parents, relatives and friends were waiting at the court house to bail us out. Most of them reached there early and were informed that the bail documents would be out first thing in the morning.

   The bail documents only came out at 11am. And everybody was told that they had to open a bank account, deposit the bail money and make it back to the court house with all the paperwork in order by 12pm. That was exactly one hour.

   Everyone rushed to the bank, one single bank with only a few operational lines. The queue was long and processing took forever. According to my loved ones, it was the most stressing time of their lives. Because if they did not make it back to the court house by 12, then I would have to stay another night in jail.

   A few ended up having to stay another night. Keep in mind that 22 of us were proven to be innocent by clinical tests. Yet some of these wrongly accused people had to spend three days and two nights in prison.

   We put on our civilian clothes and were once again handcuffed. Once again, my heart died and my soul withered. We were brought to the court and I was sickened once again by the antics of the policemen.

   We were in the van going by the heart of Kuala Lumpur when these two escorting policemen slid open the window and started whistling at a woman walking down the street. These were our policemen. I was sickened to the bone.

   We all reached the courthouse and were led through the street still in handcuffs and in full view of the public and our loved ones. We were told by the court that we will be set free on bail. We were given some documents informing us where and when to collect the results of the hospital tests for our urine and when to show up in court again.

   We were told to collect our blood tests results from the Brickfields police station on Oct 2.

   The recovery

   I got out on Sept 26. I was driving past the Kuala Lumpur Twin Towers that night and I felt that it did not mean anything anymore. I used to be proud to be Malaysian, the twin towers used to be a source of pride. But now, all my nationalistic pride was gone, I had just been treated like a criminal by my own country. A country which I loved… used to love. I used to think that this country was beautiful. But now all I see is a country so currupted and dirty. No amount of washing will clean away this feeling.

   The verdict (Oct 2)

   It was time to collect our results. We showed up at the Brickfields police station where 22 of us were pronounced clean and had to make our way to the court house. I asked for documentation to state that we were clean. But the policemen said there was no documentation and that they would call the court house to inform them. No documentation in an advanced economy like ours, this was unacceptable.

   Nevertheless, we all made our way to the court house and there, we were proclaimed innocent and free to go. Again, I asked for documentation to state that we were cleared of all charges and that we were free to go. But there was no documentation. No black and white. So technically, we had to trust the word of this court official, whose name or rank we did not know.

   The anger (now till justice is served)

   The 22 of us will never be the same again. Malaysia will never be the same again.

   I was once a fun loving jovial person. Food no longer taste good, the sky seems perpetually cloudy and everybody I meet looks different.

   My girlfriend had asked if this experience had changed me. I replied ‘maybe’… and she cried.

6. @Zarul Wong

   Hands down, my truest respect for you my friend. You are indeed a friend of mankind. Malaysia lack human beings of your integrity and thinking these days. I am not bragging here, but I come from the descendants of one the founders of Malaysia, Tun Tan Cheng Lock. He was my great granduncle. We have now assimilated into the society, learning the ways of this land the best that we can, to work, live, play harmoniously with all other people.

   But the MCA of the day, is infested with people like Pam, Disagree or Simon here (who's just a bloody nosy fuck from somewhere down there), who are the real perpetrators behind the downfall of our system.

   So go on my dear friend, we are on the right path. God bless us and this land of ours!

   @Simon Li:

   That shows who YOU really are, behind all these BS you seem to propound. It is people like YOU that are fucking destroying every righteaouness there is in the world. You just do not realise it, but its people like YOU that is destroying the world, with your flashy Merc.

   You participated in the bride in the first place. If you are the person you are you seem to be propounding in the first place, YOU WOULD NOT BE BREAKING LAWS OK? When I drive down to SG, it's the SG bloody MOFOS who are speeding all the way. NOT US. Well, what's a few MYRs to test drive your new 300 Merc right? :P

   Tell me this Mr. Simon-and-His-300-Shining-Merc, if a pussy was wide opened in front of you right now, would you not FUCK it? Imagine Erra Fazira, or whoever Chinese girl you were dreaming to fuck when you were in SG?

   Well, we don't have to tell of the whole world all the pussies that you ALREADY FUCKED HERE WITH YOUR LIMP DICK here right, you flashing about with your SG plated, lousy 300 Merc? But it's ok, I'm a human too, I know how YOU fell. And I know that good ol' senior minister LKY has YOUR dick on the leash for 24/7/365. Well then it's natural for YOUR dick to release some seed, or sin, or whatever that is applicable to your angelic dick, outside of goody two shoes SG right? :P

   So naturally as how humans are, you go down to Malaysia. This is where you let it all out, your demons, your lust, the every bad side that you DO NOT show back there in goody two shoes SG :p I know you kind, you ONLY behave right in SG, you have another side of yourself here.

   Then you go back to SG, getting back to your sweet fucking little piece of an innocent wife, kissing your sweet daughter on the cheek and reading her a few bedtime humpty dumpty fucking stories like you're the best father in the whole fucking WORLD.

   So Simon with the shiny Merc 300, you think that the Malaysian Police do not want what YOU have? They do, they're humans too. They are not angels, they have a dick like you too (probably bigger than yours, since ). So everyone is a human here. So don't go showing off what you seem to know what is right or wrong ok? You are the least in the capacity to talk about it :P

   Thank you and have a good day everyone :P

7. On a lighter note.

   Five or six years ago, I was stopped by two traffic policemen in the vicinity of the padang (can't recall the offence). They asked me to settle, the thinner one got into my front passenger seat, the fat one the back seat, too many people around, they said. Told me to go up Bukit Nanas (St John's and convent). Both took off their helmets!

   I did as requested (they were polite) but I worried about my brand new leather seats. Sat and talked for maybe as long as twenty minutes, told them I live in Singapore, showed them my blue Malaysian I/C and my blue Singapore PR card, asked about their daily labour and low salary in my lousy Malay, had a few laughs. Gave them 20 sing dollars (shouldn't have done, but soft heart) and they said, "Aiya, towkay, sangat kedekut." Gave them another 20 sing dollars, dropped them back at where they had got into my car.

   My shiny mercs 300 (though Singapore plate) perhaps contributed to a peaceful conversation.

8. I like how this post have gotten waayyyy off topic and people have no idea what the heck they are talking about anymore. Keep it up, hommiess.

9. Bullies get kicked, they look lost. Same for primevals and their relatives several million years ago. I am NOT saying you are related to the two cops, only scratching in the same millenium.

10. @simon li

    I see. Was that for me…or did you just feel lonely because you didn't have lunch date today?

    "Two…men, in uniform, baring teeth of hardly veiled threats of nameless consequences…against one…a lady too."

    O rly? Baring teeth? Have I been looking at the wrong clip, people? I think I need to be redirected to the right one because the one I saw, the two policemen looked like lost puppies trying to figure out what heck is this chick doing.

    Maybe if it was something like this, I'll sympathize because it looks painful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oTaAMkcjVw

    YIKES!

    @AgreeToDisagree

    Different time zone? Jet Lag? No1curr.

11. (Khoo Leong Hin wrote: Ephesians 5:11 says, "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.")

    Expose them? Okay, Boss! If you say so… What say we start with just two of The Seven Deadly Sins – WRATH and PRIDE.

    WRATH

    —–

    (Pamela Lim wrote: You will not be able to outrun the warring angels given charge of me for every word you speak against me, you will face them. I reverse every curse that is laid without cause on me, I send back the darts that u throw at me & cast brimstones & fire upon you. I have never had my prayers unanswered. Those who wield the sceptre of wickedness, beware! For God will lift up the righteous & cast u down! I will beat back & cast down the sceptre of wickedness, breaking it down & destroying d dominion of Satan. Those who curse me will be cursed. I'm in a fight but not physical, a war that is spiritual. I will wield the sceptre which has upon it the name of my Lord.)

    Tsk Tsk Tsk.. And all this time I thought forgiving and forgetting was the Christian way?

    PRIDE

    —–

    (Pamela Lim wrote: My family had been a close source to the family of the late Tun Razak and the father of our independence, Tunku Abdul Rahman.)

    (Pamela Lim wrote: You ought to know that I am the descendent of Malaya’s first court interpreter, Peter Lim and can trace back four generations in Malaysia.)

    (Pamela Lim wrote: If someone like me who represents Malaysia as an expert in d ISO Stds for Diving Services Tourism Committee 228/Working Group 1 who meet with interntnl movers & shakers of d world's dive industry can get that kind of treatment, what more u?)

    "Pride (Latin, superbia), or hubris, is considered the original and most serious of the seven deadly sins, and indeed the ultimate source from which the others arise. It is identified as a desire to be more important or attractive than others, failing to acknowledge the good work of others, and excessive love of self (especially holding self out of proper position toward God)." – Wikipedia

    "Lan Si, Lan Yong" – Don't need Wikipedia

    ———-

    (Khoo Leong Hin wrote: John 3:20~21 says, "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.")

    I'll see your John 3:20~21 and raise you a Numbers 35:30 in context – "If anyone (solicits a bribe), the (corrupt official) shall be (punished) on the evidence of witnessES. But no person shall be (punished) on the testimony of ONE witness.

    ———-

    (Khoo Leong Hin wrote: Proverb 29:9 says, "If a wise man contends with a foolish man, whether the fool rages or laughs, there is no peace.")

    I guess my chips are all in with Proverbs 26:12 – "Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him."

12. APPEAL BY NATHANIEL TAN – FROM MALAYSIAN INSIDER

    GATHER AT BUKIT AMAN SATURDAY 30 OCTOBER

    OCT 28 — I try not to hate cops, I really do.

    I remember the ones who made an effort to get me better food than what lock-up inmates usually get. I think of those who risk life and limb to protect us every single day on the job. Very little is to be gained, after all, from hating anyone. Or from trying to lump every member of a group as one monolithic being.

    While we avoid hating people, I’m not sure it’s wrong to hate acts. Some say hate is only one side of a coin away from love; that those who hate at least still care, and that the true attitude to worry about is indifference.

    TWO DEATHS, ONE DAY

    On July 16, 2009, Teoh Beng Hock died. This is an incident I hope we will never, ever forget. Across town in a Sentul police station on that very same day, another man died as well. His name was R. Gunasegaran, and I believe he was beaten to death.

    Today, 15 months later, I fear that the chain of events that started on that July 16 may endanger the well-being or even lives of another three men.

    Gunasegaran was arrested in a narcotics sweep in Sentul. Two hours later, he was dead. His sister R. Ganga Gowri, who I met for the first time this Tuesday, was understandably shocked and traumatised. She did not believe that Gunasegaran died from a “drug overdose” as reported.

    She did not let her malcontent sit idle however; this lady bravely made an effort to locate other individuals who were picked up in the raid along with Gunasegaran, to find the truth about what happened on that July 16. As you can imagine, it’s not easy to find people who are willing to talk about witnessing any criminal acts by the police (we will soon see why). It took Ganga Gowri a month of tracking down individuals and slowly getting them to talk.

    One can only imagine how much work it must have taken to persuade three men, already in trouble with the law, to speak out against the police in open court. This, though, is exactly what Ganga Gowri did. As a result of her persistence, and in what may have been a first for an inquest into a death in custody, three men finally plucked up the courage to step forward and, in a court of law, openly testified that a policeman beat a suspect.

    3 WITNESSES: GUNASEGARAN KICKED UNCONSCIOUS

    According to documents provided by M. Visvanathan, the lawyer who represented Gunasegaran’s family, the three men who testified are Ravi Subramaniam, Suresh M Subbaiah and K Selvachandran.

    All three men testified that Gunasegaran was beaten and kicked while detained. Ravi was made by the police to help Gunasegaran take his fingerprints and urine sample, because the latter was in too bad shape to do so himself. Ravi then helped Gunasegaran to a room with a chair, and was sent back to the lock-up. He then heard a chair fall. When he next saw Gunasegaran, he could not ascertain whether he was alive or dead.

    Ravi also testified that a policeman promised him an early release if he would testify that Gunasegaran fell down of his own accord and was not beaten by the police.

    All witnesses corroborated this account, and identified one Lance Corporal MOHD FAIZAL MAT TAIB as the policeman who kicked Gunasegaran in the chest and back. There were also accusations of beatings with a rubber hose and wooden stick.

    COPS WALK FREE

    On Monday, October 25, 2010, coroner SITI SHAKIRAH MOHTARUDIN gave an open verdict as to the death of Gunasegaran — stating that there was insufficient evidence to prove any cause of death; saying basically that the state had no idea how he died.

    This judgment was delivered despite the eyewitness testimonies. According to a lawyer, at one point in the judgment, the coroner speculated that “the injuries could have been caused by efforts to resuscitate the deceased, even though the medical officer testified that no effort was made at resuscitation.”

    Unsettled and in tears a press conference on Tuesday (I really hope you’ll take the time to watch the short video), Ganga Gowri said: “Why has there been no action taken, despite there being witnesses who saw the beatings? I have been crying since yesterday, I still cannot understand. I cannot accept what is going on.” The last time I saw someone look so lost, numb and distraught was when I attended a similar press conference with A. Kugan’s mother.

    One cannot help but marvel at the irony of Manmohan Singh’s visit. Let’s hope he’s aware.

    SELVACHANDRAN BEATEN IN FRONT OF WIFE AND KIDS

    Ganga Gowri was joined at this press conference by one S. Saraswathy (I have a cousin by that name), wife of Selvachandran.

    Selvachandran was one of the men who placed the truth above a fear of the authorities, and decided to do his duty to the late Gunasegaran and his family by testifying in court about what he saw happen to Gunasegaran.

    On Monday night 25 October, the very same day that the “open verdict” was delivered, Selvachandran would pay the price for his decision to stand up for what was right.

    Saraswathy explained that at around 10pm, a group of unidentified men came banging at their door. While Selvachandran was looking for the keys, they became increasingly aggressive and broke the door down.

    These men handcuffed Selvachandran, made his wife remove his sarung and replace it with a pair of pants, and then bizarrely asked her to give him a kiss (goodbye?). They then took him outside and beat him severely in front of his wife and children.

    When his poor, confused children tried to ask these men why they were taking their father, the men hurled verbal abuse at both mother and children, and continued beating Selvachandran. They only then briefly flashed some cards showing that they were police and took off with Selvachandran in tow.

    Nobody knows for sure where he is or what he is charged with — early indications suggest that one of the many laws allowing for indefinite detention without trial will or have been used.

    COPS/GANGSTERS

    The very first episode of the critically acclaimed HBO series “The Wire” features a character called William Gant. In the opening scenes of the episode, we see him nervously giving testimony in court during the murder trial positively identifying the accused — a cousin of a drug lord. In the courtroom are men dressed in sharp suits, looking quietly intimidating. It turns out these men have bribed another witness in the same case to reverse her testimony, and the murderer walks free.

    By the end of the episode, William Gant has earned himself a bullet in the head, courtesy of the drug dealers.

    “The Wire” features a world where the cops can do very little to stop criminals from doing whatever they please. In Malaysia, it seems there is very little anybody can do to stop the cops from behaving like criminals whenever they please.

    NEVER-ENDING IMPUNITY

    What kind of police force is so sure of their impunity that they would assault someone who just testified against them the very same night a verdict is delivered exonerating them?

    Their fear of justice is so non-existent that it appears never to have crossed their minds that their actions on Monday night might appear fishy. Or even if it did, there was clearly a belief that there wasn’t a damn thing anyone could do about it.

    With no verdict ever having found a policeman guilty of abuse or death in custody, can you blame them for thinking so? In fact, by law, the only thing you can do in the circumstances that face both Ganga Gowri and Saraswathy — where you feel you have been wronged by the police — is to file a police report.

    Is their only recourse to justice based on some hope that other cops will turn on their colleagues, brothers and sisters? The same men and women they look to watch their back in the field?

    I am entirely hard pressed to see how anyone of any intelligence could possibly fail to see the inherent, mind-blowing stupidity in this blatant conflict of interest.

    LIGHTING THE DARKNESS

    There are good cops, and there are bad cops. In Malaysia, there are some very bad cops indeed.

    I feel the culture of beating and torturing people in police lock-ups is widespread and deeply ingrained. I shudder to think of the degree to which these men and women have become desensitised to violence.

    Most readers of this article would never experience this, and some of us (who I don’t blame) might subconsciously hope that ignoring a problem like this is the same as making it not exist. Or, worse yet, think that it is somehow a necessity in “fighting crime.”

    Some, however, have actually had some seriously bad experiences. Among the middle class, a “popular” case is the nightclub drug raid (read: extortion). This one very unfortunate young man is but the latest in a string of victims in similarly traumatic cases, the type of which we have all heard about for years. Are we ever really the same after?

    While the scale differs, the underlying reasons are the same — a culture of impunity breeds bullies. The willingness and ability to inflict harm on other human beings thrives in the dark. It thrives in places where eyes refuse to look, and light refuses to shine.

    The other two witnesses in Gunasegaran’s case have long been in police custody. No one seems to know how they are or what they might be going through — they live in that dark world, one that so few of us can peer into. Thinking about this fills me with dread.

    THIS FAR, NO FURTHER

    I am not exaggerating or trying to play dramatic hero when I say that we (kita, not kami) could be all that separates Selvachandran, Ravi and Suresh from Gunasegaran’s fate.

    I have seen first hand how public pressure stays the hand of excess on the part of the cops — how it saved me from meeting the fate of Mr Tung Ket Ming.

    I know there’s a lot competing for our attention right now — by-elections, mega towers, natural disasters, and even the death of Paul the octopus. It is our heavy-hearted plea that you’ll still manage to SPARE JUST A BIT OF YOUR TIME to write about this, TELL YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY about what is happening and join our gathering in two days.

    On Saturday morning, October 30 at 10am, some concerned citizens will be gathering at the Bukit Aman police headquarters at the Lake Gardens entrance to stand with Mrs Saraswathy, Mrs Ganga Gowry, and many others. We stand with them not to incite blind hatred against the men and women tasked to protect us, but simply because we can no longer stand idly by as our brothers and sisters are beaten and dying.

    I know it’s a lot to ask of your Saturday morning, but I really do hope you’ll come and show them they are not alone.

    Come early, enjoy a fresh morning walk, and help make sure a few less fortunate Malaysians may one day be able to enjoy that same walk, free from any violation of their most basic human rights.

    Saraswathy and her children were forced to see something no human should ever have to see.

    If we do not take enough effort to show we care and that we will not suffer such evil in our midst, they — or others like them who we have not met yet — may have to feel what Ganga Gowry, Teoh Beng Hock’s family, Aminulrasyid’s parents, and so many more have felt.

    * The views expressed here are the personal opinion of the columnist.

13. APPEAL BY NATHANIEL TAN – FROM MALAYSIAN INSIDER

    GATHER AT BUKIT AMAN SATURDAY 30 OCTOBER

    OCT 28 — I try not to hate cops, I really do.

    I remember the ones who made an effort to get me better food than what lock-up inmates usually get. I think of those who risk life and limb to protect us every single day on the job.

    Very little is to be gained, after all, from hating anyone. Or from trying to lump every member of a group as one monolithic being.

    While we avoid hating people, I’m not sure it’s wrong to hate acts. Some say hate is only one side of a coin away from love; that those who hate at least still care, and that the true attitude to worry about is indifference.

    TWO DEATHS, ONE DAY

    On July 16, 2009, Teoh Beng Hock died. This is an incident I hope we will never, ever forget. Across town in a Sentul police station on that very same day, another man died as well. His name was R. Gunasegaran, and I believe he was beaten to death.

    Today, 15 months later, I fear that the chain of events that started on that July 16 may endanger the well-being or even lives of another three men.

    Gunasegaran was arrested in a narcotics sweep in Sentul. Two hours later, he was dead. His sister R. Ganga Gowri, who I met for the first time this Tuesday, was understandably shocked and traumatised. She did not believe that Gunasegaran died from a “drug overdose” as reported.

    She did not let her malcontent sit idle however; this lady bravely made an effort to locate other individuals who were picked up in the raid along with Gunasegaran, to find the truth about what happened on that July 16. As you can imagine, it’s not easy to find people who are willing to talk about witnessing any criminal acts by the police (we will soon see why). It took Ganga Gowri a month of tracking down individuals and slowly getting them to talk.

    One can only imagine how much work it must have taken to persuade three men, already in trouble with the law, to speak out against the police in open court. This, though, is exactly what Ganga Gowri did. As a result of her persistence, and in what may have been a first for an inquest into a death in custody, three men finally plucked up the courage to step forward and, in a court of law, openly testified that a policeman beat a suspect.

    3 WITNESSES: GUNASEGARAN KICKED UNCONSCIOUS

    According to documents provided by M. Visvanathan, the lawyer who represented Gunasegaran’s family, the three men who testified are Ravi Subramaniam, Suresh M Subbaiah and K Selvachandran.

    All three men testified that Gunasegaran was beaten and kicked while detained. Ravi was made by the police to help Gunasegaran take his fingerprints and urine sample, because the latter was in too bad shape to do so himself. Ravi then helped Gunasegaran to a room with a chair, and was sent back to the lock-up. He then heard a chair fall. When he next saw Gunasegaran, he could not ascertain whether he was alive or dead.

    Ravi also testified that a policeman promised him an early release if he would testify that Gunasegaran fell down of his own accord and was not beaten by the police.

    All witnesses corroborated this account, and identified one Lance Corporal Mohd Faizal Mat Taib as the policeman who kicked Gunasegaran in the chest and back. There were also accusations of beatings with a rubber hose and wooden stick.

    COPS WALK FREE

    On Monday, October 25, 2010, coroner SITI SHAKIRAH MOHTARUDIN gave an open verdict as to the death of Gunasegaran — stating that there was insufficient evidence to prove any cause of death; saying basically that the state had no idea how he died.

    This judgment was delivered despite the eyewitness testimonies. According to a lawyer, at one point in the judgment, the coroner speculated that “the injuries could have been caused by efforts to resuscitate the deceased, even though the medical officer testified that no effort was made at resuscitation.”

    Unsettled and in tears a press conference on Tuesday (I really hope you’ll take the time to watch the short video), Ganga Gowri said: “Why has there been no action taken, despite there being witnesses who saw the beatings? I have been crying since yesterday, I still cannot understand. I cannot accept what is going on.” The last time I saw someone look so lost, numb and distraught was when I attended a similar press conference with A. Kugan’s mother.

    One cannot help but marvel at the irony of Manmohan Singh’s visit. Let’s hope he’s aware.

    SELVACHANDRAN BEATEN IN FRONT OF WIFE AND KIDS

    Ganga Gowri was joined at this press conference by one S. Saraswathy (I have a cousin by that name), wife of Selvachandran.

    Selvachandran was one of the men who placed the truth above a fear of the authorities, and decided to do his duty to the late Gunasegaran and his family by testifying in court about what he saw happen to Gunasegaran.

    On Monday night 25 October, the very same day that the “open verdict” was delivered, Selvachandran would pay the price for his decision to stand up for what was right.

    Saraswathy explained that at around 10pm, a group of unidentified men came banging at their door. While Selvachandran was looking for the keys, they became increasingly aggressive and broke the door down.

    These men handcuffed Selvachandran, made his wife remove his sarung and replace it with a pair of pants, and then bizarrely asked her to give him a kiss (goodbye?). They then took him outside and beat him severely in front of his wife and children.

    When his poor, confused children tried to ask these men why they were taking their father, the men hurled verbal abuse at both mother and children, and continued beating Selvachandran. They only then briefly flashed some cards showing that they were police and took off with Selvachandran in tow.

    Nobody knows for sure where he is or what he is charged with — early indications suggest that one of the many laws allowing for indefinite detention without trial will or have been used.

    COPS/GANGSTERS

    The very first episode of the critically acclaimed HBO series “The Wire” features a character called William Gant. In the opening scenes of the episode, we see him nervously giving testimony in court during the murder trial positively identifying the accused — a cousin of a drug lord. In the courtroom are men dressed in sharp suits, looking quietly intimidating. It turns out these men have bribed another witness in the same case to reverse her testimony, and the murderer walks free.

    By the end of the episode, William Gant has earned himself a bullet in the head, courtesy of the drug dealers.

    “The Wire” features a world where the cops can do very little to stop criminals from doing whatever they please. In Malaysia, it seems there is very little anybody can do to stop the cops from behaving like criminals whenever they please.

    NEVER-ENDING IMPUNITY

    What kind of police force is so sure of their impunity that they would assault someone who just testified against them the very same night a verdict is delivered exonerating them?

    Their fear of justice is so non-existent that it appears never to have crossed their minds that their actions on Monday night might appear fishy. Or even if it did, there was clearly a belief that there wasn’t a damn thing anyone could do about it.

    With no verdict ever having found a policeman guilty of abuse or death in custody, can you blame them for thinking so? In fact, by law, the only thing you can do in the circumstances that face both Ganga Gowri and Saraswathy — where you feel you have been wronged by the police — is to file a police report.

    Is their only recourse to justice based on some hope that other cops will turn on their colleagues, brothers and sisters? The same men and women they look to watch their back in the field?

    I am entirely hard pressed to see how anyone of any intelligence could possibly fail to see the inherent, mind-blowing stupidity in this blatant conflict of interest.

    LIGHTING THE DARKNESS

    There are good cops, and there are bad cops. In Malaysia, there are some very bad cops indeed.

    I feel the culture of beating and torturing people in police lock-ups is widespread and deeply ingrained. I shudder to think of the degree to which these men and women have become desensitised to violence.

    Most readers of this article would never experience this, and some of us (who I don’t blame) might subconsciously hope that ignoring a problem like this is the same as making it not exist. Or, worse yet, think that it is somehow a necessity in “fighting crime.”

    Some, however, have actually had some seriously bad experiences. Among the middle class, a “popular” case is the nightclub drug raid (read: extortion). This one very unfortunate young man is but the latest in a string of victims in similarly traumatic cases, the type of which we have all heard about for years. Are we ever really the same after?

    While the scale differs, the underlying reasons are the same — a culture of impunity breeds bullies. The willingness and ability to inflict harm on other human beings thrives in the dark. It thrives in places where eyes refuse to look, and light refuses to shine.

    The other two witnesses in Gunasegaran’s case have long been in police custody. No one seems to know how they are or what they might be going through — they live in that dark world, one that so few of us can peer into. Thinking about this fills me with dread.

    THIS FAR, NO FURTHER

    I am not exaggerating or trying to play dramatic hero when I say that we (kita, not kami) could be all that separates Selvachandran, Ravi and Suresh from Gunasegaran’s fate.

    I have seen first hand how public pressure stays the hand of excess on the part of the cops — how it saved me from meeting the fate of Mr Tung Ket Ming.

    I know there’s a lot competing for our attention right now — by-elections, mega towers, natural disasters, and even the death of Paul the octopus. It is our heavy-hearted plea that you’ll still manage to SPARE JUST A BIT OF YOUR TIME to write about this, TELL YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY about what is happening and join our gathering in two days.

    On Saturday morning, October 30 at 10am, some concerned citizens will be gathering at the Bukit Aman police headquarters at the Lake Gardens entrance to stand with Mrs Saraswathy, Mrs Ganga Gowry, and many others. We stand with them not to incite blind hatred against the men and women tasked to protect us, but simply because we can no longer stand idly by as our brothers and sisters are beaten and dying.

    I know it’s a lot to ask of your Saturday morning, but I really do hope you’ll come and show them they are not alone.

    Come early, enjoy a fresh morning walk, and help make sure a few less fortunate Malaysians may one day be able to enjoy that same walk, free from any violation of their most basic human rights.

    Saraswathy and her children were forced to see something no human should ever have to see.

    If we do not take enough effort to show we care and that we will not suffer such evil in our midst, they — or others like them who we have not met yet — may have to feel what Ganga Gowry, Teoh Beng Hock’s family, Aminulrasyid’s parents, and so many more have felt.

    * The views expressed here are the personal opinion of the columnist.

14. Pete Norte :

    1) Freedom from Apartheid/Fascism

    2) Freedom from Religious-Persecution/Religious-Supremacy.

    3) Equality for all ethnicities and faiths in all aspects of policy, Law and Constitution.

    Is a normal non-delusional world. Which sociopathic Hitler world are you projecting from though that the above is considered such?

    Naj :

    Oh dear! Apologies to Loyar Burok and readers for unecessary reposts then. Not used to the layout still . . .

    ReeseBurry :

    Glad you're entertained. Though finding it necessary that someone counter the attempts at normalization of apartheid and tasering by cyber troopers should not be considered blubbering. Happen to have free time for now, and yes am not quite in the same time zone as you guys. Jet lag sort of.

15. @simon li…you're as stupid as Pammy bro..hahahaha..can i call you "bro"? Or you prefer people call you "idiot"? Easily fall to this Pammy's scam…get a life idiot!!!!

    @AgreetoDisagree…pls go to Singapore and tell me what is justice and apartheid…stupid fuck!!! You pick fight with anybody who disagree with you like Hitler!!

    @Zarul Wong….i salute you!!! You ARE my kind of citizen (quoting from Simon li)!

16. I don't work Fridays midday while the others go to the mosque. So here goes, Reeseburry.

    1. I would think Ms Pam would have an even healthier ego, if ego is your hang up. Two…men, in uniform, baring teeth of hardly veiled threats of nameless consequences…against one…a lady too. Solid, healthy guts, Ms Pam. You have my utmost admiration and respect.

    2. Zarul Wong, et al….hmm…pampampuki's psuedonym's crudity appeals to the like who call him "bro".

    3. Dato' Khalid's statement missed one thing – why do a lot of Malaysians react negatively to PDRM? Sodomy I & II? Beating and killing people in lock-ups (even ex-deputy PM)? The Malay boy who was shot like target practice? I'll bore if I go on.

    4. We are ordinary citizens expecting protection by the law and PDRM. We get bribe demands, Musa Hassans, ex-CCID chief and his lawyer hounded for their courage, PDRM man-handling of elected ADUNs, PDRM racist bullying and even hatred for non-Malays.

    5. We can't tell apart the uniformed thugs from the few good apples. Citizens with less courage than Ms Pam are apprehensive when they see this particular uniform. Ms Pam probably was as well, but she fought back solidly and aggressively as called for…one lady against two uniforms!

    6. Who failed who? Who wears the uniform and wields the gun, baton, summons, lock-up (for your own safety…!) and power against defenseless, violated and bullied citizens, especially "pendatangs". Perception only? Produced, packaged and branded by the BN government over decades.

    Ms Pam, if I say more I'll be long-winded. You ARE my kind of citizen!

17. I wonder what are Ms.Pam's current opinion of this "debate"? Surely being criticized and ridiculed by many from this site as well as others have an effect on someone's ego.

    @simon li

    I do believe Zarul Wong has only been writing a total of 3 comments. If anything, it seems like AgreeToDisagree is the one with lack of sleep as his last comment was at 4am! My Gosh. Oh, and it shows because as Naj pointed out, he is blubbering that his comment was deleted when in fact he was in the wrong comment thread! How entertaining.

18. @simon li

    Get a life… stalking on other checking when they post…

    While you at it… check out @AgreeToDisagree posting time…

19. Zarul Wong has been writing here non-stop from 10 pm 28 October to 2 am 29 October! Goodness. He is eaten up, raining so much abuse and contempt on Ms Pam from his very first posting. Goodness me, he is feverish from lack of sleep.

20. Most converts make something out of it, albeit with crumbs. Zarul Wong can't make even crumbs and is stuck in his sorry existence viciously attacking people like Ms Pam for his daily high. It won't help to reveal all your personal demons here in feverish excitement and prolonged anxiety. So many angry words will only lead to inevitable breakdown. Better see a shrink, although remedy is out of the question, just to alleviate your character defects. And don't scold and abuse the doctor if she says something painful but true.

21. In other words, look at that thread and the comment you posted which you said was removed is there.

22. AgreetoDisagree @ your post 29.10 (1228)

    The comments have not been removed lah, dont blame LoyarBurok.

    You are following and posting at the wrong comment thread. See: https://www.loyarburok.com/the-system/bolehland/vi…

    That's what you mean, right?

23. AgreeToDisagree, your kind of world you seem to be talking about here just cannot coexist with reality. Sorry to break it to you, but it's just not possible. Much less with how draconian the way YOU approach things. And it's alarming us all we have amongst us, a delusional sociopath like you.

    Trust me on this one son, you and your dreams are just impossible things. Wake up, get back to reality before it's too late.

24. It is a shame such people as 'Zarul' exist among us. And I am not referring to EQUAL Muslims of Chinese ethnicity not accepting of APARTHEID.

    1) Of course, and it is the other way around.

    Ditto.

    2) I am disappointed to note that here you begin to show your hypocrisy.

    I too am disappointed to note that here you begin to show your hypocrisy.

    3) But does subjugating the subjugator bring about true freedom?

    If you don't know who has being doing the subjugating then sorry to say we can't hold a converation on this subject until you do.

    4) The majority point of view is that WE DON’T CARE ABOUT ALL THIS. We just want to live our lives.

    Under APARTHEID as a lapdog? Then the majority point of view is that only YOU DON’T CARE ABOUT ALL THIS.

    5) I never wish to oppress people. I just want to live my life, same as many people who don’t feel strongly over vague ideals of what you profess to.

    That was not what you were saying earlier or is reflected in the current system.

    6) It reflects on your juvenile, naive worldview of refusing to accept the truth that there can never be justice. So I ask you, how is your sense of justice FAIR?

    It reflects rather your intention to normalise injustice. Equality and freedom from APARTHEID is fair. Is YOUR sense of justice fair?

    7) I don’t even know what you’re talking about. You, however, are now more than liable to be sued for libel and defamation of my character.

    You certainly don't know what you yourself are taking about either. There is no other reason for the minorities to accede to a second class citizenship. You are liable to be sued for collusion with the state to oppress citizens. You have defamed yourself for defending an untenable stance.

    9) See my above response. Now it is clear that it is you who is lacking in “principles”.

    Ditto.

    10) But the APARTHEID you mention is a product of your own imagined prejudice. Vehement denial is one of the hallmarks of cult-like brainwashing.

    Unaware we have 2 systems of citizenship? Then sorry to say we can't hold a conversation on this subject until you do. Speaking for yourself?

    11) If we want something, we WORK for it.

    Equality and Freedom from APARTHEID are a given in the FREE WORLD. We do not have to work for it. By insisting that we do, you are the on being cult-like.

    12) Ramblings of a defeated man. So much for equal rights and justice, coming from you.

    Since you have decided to respond in self denial even though defeated yourself, I will not bother responding. Let the ballot show who is defeated. This much for those pretending equal rights and justice exist.

    14) Again, an attempt at utter lies and deceit.

    Speaking for yourself again.

    I too suppose you are a product of your environment. Try to consider living a life with less lapdoggery and treachery to your fellow citizens. Maybe then you shall understand the freedom you lack. Thank you.

25. @AgreeToDisagree

    "(1) Your word against ours. But facts do not lie."

    Of course, and it is the other way around. Facts of this case is a video showing an arrogant girl belittling the authority of Polis Bantuan, patronizing them simply because of their inability to speak English and then pretending to be the "victim" to garner public support for whatever reason. You are correct, I agree that facts of the case involving Pamela Lim's video do not lie.

    "(2) We have not been doing the name calling. How is it far removed especially the fact that there is space for everyone to live as they will?"

    I am disappointed to note that here you begin to show your hypocrisy. I HAVE NEVER resorted to childish name calling in my refutation of your opinions. I merely expressed the view that your ideals are stupid. It is, I feel, a valid conclusion of your ideals. You, however, have throughout your response to me, called me, among others, "lapdog", "UMNO-putra lapdog" and "FAKE Muslim LAPDOG". I admit that not everyone has been illuminated with gentlemanly decorum in the course of intellectual discourse. It is evident that not a slither of illumination has occurred to you.

    "(3) See Ans.2. You can misconstrue this as anything but logic says otherwise, demogoguery cannot change facts. The ones in fact doing subjugating are the ones insisting there is no true freedom."

    But does subjugating the subjugator bring about true freedom? What is the point of true freedom if all it breeds is contempt for fellow men, such as what you have for me right now? How can one ensure the objectivity of true freedom? Can you? Can you GUARANTEE that true freedom does not bring about utter anarchy, which is just two lunchbreaks away anyway? What use of freedom if it allows everyone the right to be stupid?

    "(4) Nothing is wrong with that. Conversely people have a right to not conform as well. It is a free world save by the force of arms you allude here. Rule of mob is not democracy. These bonds as you describe are but mere shackles the UMNO-putra and lapdogs as yourself wish to put on everyone so you can parasite off them. We’d sooner vote UMNO-BN to hell."

    But what does non-conformity achieve? Simply to not conform to make a vague statement is pointless and childish. It is like a child playing with fire just to piss the parents off. I never described speaking Bahasa Malaysia is a "bond". You put the words in my mouth, a tactic people like you are wont to do. And just because I do not agree with you does not mean I agree with UMNO or BN. Stop seeing the world in black and white, and start realizing that my point of view are as valid as yours.

    The problem with your thinking is that if I don't agree with you, then I agree with the ones you are against. In your narrow view of the makeup of the country, you have refused to see that you DO NOT represent the majority point of view. The government does not represent the majority point of view. The majority point of view is that WE DON'T CARE ABOUT ALL THIS. We just want to live our lives.

    "(5) Insisting something is truth does not make it the truth. Who is destroying anything? Your own weakness makes you think everything is destroyed because you wish to oppress people and cannot. We are free human beings, you can oppress yourself if you want to oppress so much. We will free ourselves because we want to free so much."

    Conversely, your version of the "truth" does not make it so simply because you say so. I never wish to oppress people. I just want to live my life, same as many people who don't feel strongly over vague ideals of what you profess to. Just because we choose to live our lives with a lesser degree of prejudice and hate does not make us "self-oppressed", as you infer.

    "(6) Who’s been egging? In every instance I have shown the most respect to PDRM though Pam was too jittery in the vid. We know BUT WILL NEVER accept that there are injustices. You lapdogs think that a different law applies to you? Just the kind of unprincipled citizen the world can do without."

    As noted before, it is unfortunate that you have resorted to juvenile name-calling. It reflects on your juvenile, naive worldview of refusing to accept the truth that there can never be justice. In the attainment of justice, it is inevitable that there is an aggrieve party deprived of his own justice. This is basic. Ask any lawyer this and they will understand, even if they refuse to admit to it. This is the paradox of what is perceived to be justice. Your form of justice will deprive your imagined adversaries, which I infer from your writings as the "UMNO-putra", of their entitlement of justice. But to you, I suppose it is fine. As long as your sense of justice is sated, then you do not care how many lives you ruin. So I ask you, how is your sense of justice FAIR? How can you accept the injustice you have brought on to the PDRM or UMNO-putras, which is mostly fueled by your sense of perceived righteous prejudice?

    "(7) After stealing from closed tenders and backdoor deals or overinflated goods/services (chandeliers) in collusion with the corrupt government department? YOu are STEALING from the citizens and will be exposed and brought to court."

    You accuse me of assuming and here you are assuming yourself. I have never stole anything from anyone. I have never dabbled in tenders involving, as you put it, "corrupt government department". I don't even know what you're talking about. You say you deal with facts, but here you exemplify the wanton disregard to the virtues and values you seemingly uphold. You have resorted to lies, libel and utter complete assumption. Therefore, there is nothing to expose and no issue of me being brought to court. You, however, are now more than liable to be sued for libel and defamation of my character.

    "(9) Who is assuming everything the government does is wrong? It is you who are insisting that we are assuming. That again shows your lack of principles."

    See my above response. Now it is clear that it is you who is lacking in "principles".

    "(10) Freedom from APARTHEID is the first word you need to learn. As this is the first big word you can’t understand."

    But the APARTHEID you mention is a product of your own imagined prejudice. How can I take you seriously on this? It appears, that while you condescendingly infer that I do not understand the meaning of this "big word", it is the only "big word" which you understand, and you intend to use it for all its worth to appeal to the illusion that you are highly intelligent and informed. Which, sadly, you are not.

    "(11) Who’s being cult like when they insist that others can have no freedom to self determinism and freedom from apartheid and not have equality?"

    Vehement denial is one of the hallmarks of cult-like brainwashing. Vehement denial added with offensive rebuttal over any thought opposing the belief of said cult is almost a guaranteed behavior of a person in the thrall of a cult. You have exquisitely displayed all this in your response.

    I never said anything about having no freedom of self-determinism. I have even exemplified self-determinism in my original response: If we want something, we WORK for it. I never said anything about not having equality, either. These are all products of your limited imaginative mind.

    "(12) Apartheid and Inequality does not go anyone’s way. You seek to divide people so you can spinge off their conflict. Just like USA creating 911 for the military industry/contractors’ benefit. We only have issue with the racists and lapdogs and QUISLING converts who insult Islam by conversion to better cement you lapdog status like you in government. Could some non-BN Mullah/religious bring this lapdog to the Syariah Court to determine if he is just a lapdog pretending to be a Muslim to access certain grey area benefits and determine if he is using Islam for his political ends or a true Muslim who converted out of love for the religion? I believe Zarul is guilty of insulting the Muslims, the Sultans and Malay people’s intelligence."

    Ramblings of a defeated man. Not only are your musings completely fabricated and utter conjecture, you even question my religion as if it is an issue. Is it not possible for a Chinese to be Muslim? As an example, the Muslim population in China is equal that to the population of Malaysia! Here you illuminate us with your small-minded, prejudicial view of the world. You jump to unfathomable conclusion which makes me wonder how your cognitive process works. Which then makes me wonder why I care. You are merely a broken record. You repeat the same things over and over again ("APARTHEID!", "Evil UMNO-putra!", "Corrupt Government!"), and when confronted with rational thinking, you throw a tantrum and refuse to acknowledge the possibility that not everyone who is against you shares the same profile as those of your imagined adversaries. It appears that you are exactly similar to the so called "corrupt government" people you so hate: You simply repeat the same reasoning over and over again without actually grasping the true meaning of what you are meant to believe. My earlier assertion is accurate: your hatred and prejudice has successfully allowed you to dehumanize fellow human beings. You have dehumanized me so well that you have nothing but contempt, paranoia and hatred towards me. So much for equal rights and justice, coming from you.

    "(Ans. 14) Stupid, stupid FAKE Muslim LAPDOG. You will get your head cut off for PRETENDING to be Muslim if you are not careful, nobody, least of all Muslims, can trust a person like you."

    Again, an attempt at utter lies and deceit. Plus a plea of emotion to anyone stupid enough to agree with you.

    You disappoint me. If a sense of righteous hatred and prejudice is the sole and only purpose of your "fight for justice", then it will inevitably fail. Well, you have utterly failed in our discourse, anyway. So that's no surprise.

    Seriously, you bring a knife to a gunfight, my friend. I strongly advise, if you decide to continue with our little discourse further, that you proceed with due consideration and caution. I truly hate to ruin people's shallow belief systems, but I will not hesitate if it comes to that. You and I are truly leagues apart in our understanding of the world. It's as though everything you know, you've obtained from some misguided human rights pamphlet.

    You are a product of your environment, I suppose. Try to consider living a life with less prejudice and hatred. Maybe then you shall find the freedom you so badly seek.

    Thank you.

26. ALERT! ALARM! HALARM!

    I noticed these series of comments were removed by Loyar Burok. Hey whats going on? I think we were getting somewhere with this, why cut us all off??? Here I post again. Readers, better read it or log it before it disappears again!

    apalahNo Gravatar on 27 October, 2010 at 3:45 am

    @AgreeToDisagree.

    “That is true but we are not the ones applying APARTHEID this day.Though to apply against outsiders is no less unethical when viewed from a humanist lens.”

    I really hope to hear that for future, but for now, one race couldnt even like to agree with others race. We know, we dont want to apply APARTHEID. But you can see for time being. Any race also want power. If other got one, other also want to brag.

    Thats why, theory is always theory. I wish a theory would convert into law, but you know, ehem, we only one among millions. In the middle of millions that dont think like we think right now. In the middle of people that love wars and powers.

    Who will control it. Could we comfirm that there are no abuse, as you know law could be changed anytime? Like Singapore there. When their power risen, there is no chances for malays. Even Kampung Gelam, the last big piece malay land also abused. It was applied. PRACTICALLY.

    “Most of the people living here in Malaysia were not from Malaysia.”

    Yup. Indeed. It is real. But, our ancenstors come and open the countries. Establish them. Make roads, live happily. Create politic connections. For hundreds of years. Quote it as oldcomers.

    And then, come newcomers. Before this, they are in smaller group. Then, the group become bigger, they grows. No problem, and they come to “cari makan”.

    We happily live among them, and help each other.

    ——————————————

    We talk, helping each other for a long time.

    But, for a time there, there is nationalist, want to create COMMUNISTS idealogy. We call that Parti Komunis Malaya (PKM). At first, they helps, but after that, they rebels and kills Malays. A lot of them. Many of my relatives died, killed by communists. How we could revenge them. Could they rest in peace?

    Supporters, Chinese. Chinese Communists threaten Chinese to supply Communists.

    Tunku give them chances, but they dont want to cooperate. War again with them until Chin Peng run to Thailand.

    As an example. If that Chin Peng comes back to Malaysia, could we pardon him? After all he wrongdoings from the past, could we pardon him and think it as no problem?

    ——————————————

    We love to cooperate, but when other race oppose what we want to do, and still want to preserve their idealogy, then how?

    Ok think it PRACTICALLY. SIMULATE it in your mind.

    Malay want a school that could teach all kinds of people inside it. Other race oppose. Why, want to preserve identity.

    Thats why we have a lot of school in malaysia. Tamil school, Chinese school, Malay school.

    Could you agree that put all in one school is OK. We are OK but others say NOT.

    So, no equality. No any equality, starts from school.

    From darjah Satu, there is no equality. I know that, because i am a malay that starts my education inside a chinese school. But i still respects chinese school policy, and hoping this idea of teachings could be implemented inside malay school. Melayu malas dan sombong. It was true. I get more works, different from malay school.

    ——————————————

    “You cannot make exception for her, it is also outr of context. By principle of Jus Soli all citizens have already naturalized. Regular migration is a normal feature

    of the modern world. The second part is you not viewing things in a government’s perspective and wanting to insult migrants. One day when the humanist issue is clearer to you, you will feel very differently about what you say now.”

    I hope it turns to be simpler, but, when chinese monopoly us, and ask us to be quiet and make make it sounded like “human rights”, we are terified.

    You know, when it comes to malays people, religion is not for sympathy. It like, Could you throw only POP-POP to used on your religion? It sounds better. But, do you know people will listen when it comes to religion?

    No. No way, man.

    Religion is religion. Thats why. Religion shapes us to become us right now. Exception only for non religious people. To your knowledge, we are practically AZAN for calling MUSLIMS to pray. 5 times a day (not optional. It is required). A call for praying. We dont use handphone to call muslims to pray. It was practiced for thousand years, since ancient times.

    How we could tolerate that?

    Could we tell them to slow down, how muslims can hear? This is most taboo. TABOO for us. Not tolerated and we are willing to die for it.

    Its like, telling you (please dont be angry) dont use hell money as that paper pollutes lands, dont use that setanggi for your ancestors. Would you tolerate that? I think you will not. Same as us.

    ——————————————

    We hope no 13 may comes again where Parti Gerakan Rakyat Malaysia (Gerakan), Parti Tindakan Demokratik (DAP) and Parti Progresif Rakyat (PPP) win 25, and PAS wins 12. When they win, they insults malays as they are talking rude on malays.

    History. But it could cycle. Back again to our square one.

    We give chances. But what they treat us from the past? Give votes but get badmouthing.

    ——————————————-

    Coherent. logical thinking. We are bounded to our religion. But you also said, “So this is what the Malaysian educational system or political party in charge has bred?”

    We would agree if other race agree to a conlusion. If there is an answer. But can you get it? Miilions are not thinking wisely, but as you can see, back to main:

    Pam gets summon. Agree and go. Dont agree, go to court.

    She doesnt need to talk much. Talk, talk talk and say bye, bye.

    Police also do the work. If that Pam say like that, give a warning. If not obey give a TASER. Do according to Law.

    Both parties could do good but,see, Pam become angry. She put the video for people to watch. WORLDWIDE, see in youtube.

    She could settled it in court or police departments but, why she

    put it for TONTONAN UMUM. Popularise herself to be idol?

    Critique police to show police wrongdoings? No ID? Or any?

    Come on. When we angry, we put it for show. she could tolerate and does as police wants. Talk POLITELY. But she dont tolerate. EGOIST.

    Police also chewing gums. This is bad, when police work.

    I sympathy with Pam at first.

    But, When she draw that POL257, i could see she dont respect police anymore. Why? Because she knows RED BOOK? Aik. Only know a potion of laws doesnt make you know anything.

    we could create conlusion.

    Police not professional.

    Police Eating when working.

    But Pam thinks that police is fake.

    But not fake.

    Draw on POL257.

    And then say many unessesary words.

    Yet we tell police unprofessional, but

    Pam dont act to law. This is very bad on handling things.

    Is this kind of chinese, we want to give them chances?

    ——————————————-

    For bumiputra case, chinese people is dominant in world of selling or buying. Richest people is chinese. Rich chinese always support other chinese. That is good enough. When malay is not given chances, how many chinese will take. It become bigger. And then, no shop or anything for malay. Could you tolerate to us and give us help? Rarely chinese support malays. even there is people that need to learn mandarin before work with chinese. Why, a requirement, they say. Why dont tolerate with us?

    [[[ *** RESPONSE *** ]]]

    hi @apalah :

    Any race also want power. If other got one, other also want to brag.

    (1) That is only the chauvinists and unreasonable ambitious. To uphold personal standards we need not worry about them as the logic of what is presented in the arguement cannot be challenged by mere ambition or braggery alone.

    Thats why, theory is always theory. I wish a theory would convert into law, but you know, ehem, we only one among millions. In the middle of millions that dont think like we think right now.

    (2) Every journey begins with a single step. Lead by example.

    Who will control it. Could we comfirm that there are no abuse, as you know law could be changed anytime?

    (3) Anything unfair, as elucidated in the Human Rights Charter, or against common sense like plutocrats sequestering all the wealth and lands of the world can be displaced via revolution or voting as well as education towards fair mindedness. We can work together on this. If you want to set up a political party based on these discussions, on this spirit of open discussion we have at least embraced here, by all means state your intent for I am interested. (Barring if you're someone from existing political parties or those with wrong mindsets of course.) Can we think as if we were the only people left in this world and expand forward from there? If you can, then I'd like to meet you to discuss this.

    Like Singapore there. When their power risen, there is no chances for malays. Even Kampung Gelam, the last big piece malay land also abused. It was applied. PRACTICALLY.

    (4) I would never touch Kampong Glam. I am wholly with the Kampong Baru remaining a Malays only district. However I'd also like to ask that new areas be opened up as I suggest on my facebook group to cater to all future citizens.

    But, for a time there, there is nationalist, want to create COMMUNISTS idealogy. We call that Parti Komunis Malaya (PKM). At first, they helps, but after that, they rebels and kills Malays. A lot of them. Many of my relatives died, killed by communists. How we could revenge them. Could they rest in peace?

    (5) Majority of Chinese are not communist. Even the descendents of Communists may not be Communists. The Chinese in China even though calling themselves Communist are more Socialist-Capitalist than anything else. Chin Peng cannot be forgiven for his actions when he was young. But has he changed? Is he even Communist or the same person he was during those days now? He is an old man only. And as his memory and faculties fade, those who live with what he was in the past are doing so at their own loss. It is what we are now and what we intend to others that matter, not what we were. I do consider that it was the British and some Freemason/Zionist/NWO secret societies that put Chin Peng (then an impressionable and ambitious young man), that organized the chaos to effect their 1WorldGovernment to control everyone. Even Mahathir and Lee Kuan Yew may have been in cahoots with Chin Peng and his NWO masters the true hands behind the May 13 riots. What do you think? It is the fools who will act against the spirit of good will whatever the historical basis or current trends. Will we act to ensure freedom of man, goodwill or be taken in by centuries old secret societies which have also plotted to bring down Islam and other world religions, carved Greater India into Pakistan/Bangladesh/India 3 seperate countries? Could we pardon Chin Peng? It varies from individual to individual, but if pardoning him somehow WEAKENS the Colonial and Neo-Colonial or Fifth Columnist elements in Malaysia, we must certainly do it. THINK DEEPER.

    Malay want a school that could teach all kinds of people inside it.Other race oppose. Why, want to preserve identity.Thats why we have a lot of school in Malaysia. Tamil school, Chinese school, Malay school.Could you agree that put all in one school is OK. We are OK but others say NOT.So, no equality. No any equality, starts from school.

    (6) Don't worry about that. The education issue is a barometer and reflects on what the status of things are. Let it be so a real barometer exists. When APARTHEID ends, and only 1 class of citizenship exists, it will not matter, and even the concept of state and nation may not even last long enough to see us in our graves. Don't micromanage. We are all stuck on this and need to look at root causes rather than the symptoms of trends. This has been recognized in Human Rights Charter Article 26(c). There is a reason why that article was formulated on the back of 2 world wars. These are personal choices that will not effect TRUE EQUALITY which is a desire for free will and respect for fellow man or as of now fellow citizens.

    I hope it turns to be simpler, but, when chinese monopoly us, and ask us to be quiet and make make it sounded like “human rights”, we are terified.We dont use handphone to call muslims to pray. It was practiced for thousand years, since ancient times. Its like, telling you (please dont be angry) dont use hell money as that paper pollutes lands, dont use that setanggi for your ancestors. Would you tolerate that? I think you will not. Same as us.

    (7) There is no monopoly. Go to China and start buying land and developing it to prove this point. The world is same for all humans. Can't force anything at this level. There are laws protecting everyone and we too must apply and strengthen awareness. No spekaers existed about 1 or 2 thousand years ago, and God did not demand of the Prophet that loud speakers were to be used for Azan. If the prophet knew there were non-Muslim communities around that were bothered by overly loud prayers, I am sure he would not mind asking that non-technological methods of voice based prayer be used instead. It is eminently arguable that technology was evil in itself and is causing strife in non-Muslims against Muslims because it is undeniable that loudspeaker systems with prayers not of their own faith do disturb non-Muslims, but VOICE-ONLY prayers have an entirely different quality. This cannot be taboo because there were no loudspeakers in the Prophets time and everyone used voice. As for the hell paper issue, there must be proper place for it too and preferably awy from Muslims or other not inclined.

    Perhaps a reserved radius so the smell of burning will not reach? Same with the speaker volume. Based on this consideration and request, if loudspeakers were no longer used on regular and morning or evening prayers, non-Muslim communities would feel less pressurized by rather invasive prayers they do not want to hear and thus feel happier among Muslims wouldn't you say? The Messenger of Allah said, "…. the best of neighbours to Allah is the one who is the best of them to his neighbour." Not all neighbours are Muslim and this is where Allah tests your flexibility. When they win, they insults malays as they are talking rude on malays.

    (8) No decent person should insult anyone over politics. It is however known that ambition and greed cause this. There is no proper example for the people to follow yet and many politicians are self serving. As mentioned there are some facts we need to keep in mind all the time, if we do it is not impossible and given that Malaysia only represents less than 1% of the world's landmass, it would be best that Malays set the humanist stance so that furture developpment and sharing of Malays worldwide will not meet barriers. This is not to belittle the power of any persons but having lived under APARTHEID and authoritarianism for so long, I find that the political party paradigm as well as anything incompatible with humanist thought (which Islam has much of barring the worst of Hudud punishments) must be done away with. The future of all must not lie in the hands of a handful of politicians and do not mistake racism or apartheid or insults as representative of an entire race. We are all, MUST be all individuals for the world to progress.

    Pam gets summon. Agree and go. Dont agree, go to court. She doesnt need to talk much. Talk, talk talk and say bye, bye.

    (9) The officers could have ignored her and just left the summons. They chose to engage her in a nonsensical conversation and had an unprofessional attitude.

    They probably knew they were not using proper SOP and Pam picked up on that subconsciously. Then there is APARTHEID against minorities which made he

    feel aggrieved and use this as an opportunity to communicate this. They way she did it was wropng, but the onus is upon the government and the uniformed personnel to ensure and assure, which was not done.

    Police also do the work. If that Pam say like that, give a warning. If not obey give a TASER. Do according to Law. . . . Is this kind of chinese, we want to give them chances?

    (10) Tasering is against he spirit of the law, EVEN if the word of the law allows it – which means the person who wrote in the law allowing tasering is not a good person at all. It is morally wrong to taser anyone for arguing anything. At most take down their number and see them in court. Sue them. To do according to a Law that is WRONG, is WRONG. This is spirit of the law versus word of the law. You and all conscietious citizens with conscience MUST make the distinction and apply this to you fellow human being , even if they are not of your race or faith. A cosmopolitan and morally aware stance if you will. Don't brute force law on citizens, which is the trademark of a personal nature tainted by 'evil'. If you can let her off, do it! Don't say 'cos it's law' I will taser her or propagate the same!

    Thats the difference between Good and Evil. Hurting people is worse than letting them off. Losing abit of face as opposed to tasering someone again determines your demonic or angelic nature. Think and if you can let it go, let it go! It's not about enforcing artificial man made law but application of KINDNESS. Adaab, and nominally the spirit of Muhibbah, EVEN to non-Muslims which shows the exceptional from mediocre application of Hadiths wherever possible.

    For bumiputra case, chinese people is dominant in world of selling or buying. Richest people is chinese. Rich chinese always support other chinese. Rarely chinese support malays. even there is people that need to learn mandarin before work with chinese. Why, a requirement, they say. Why dont tolerate with us?

    (1) That trade and merchant thing is a falsehood in UNIVERSAL laws. There is no place for that in the afterlife. It is not about race or racism, though living under APARTHEID law fosters that which you describe. Those making you learn any language can be boycotted. Simple as that. But remember there is private sector and public sector. Private sector can run the business anyway they want, or even demand language. You cannot resent or expect private companies to act like a neutral government (which Malaysia under BN was not because of 2 citizenship Bumi-nonBumi policy). If they don't tolerate you then blame the APRATHEID system that makes them retaliate. But when APARTHEID policy ends, you will find that it will be THEIR FAULT instead. Right now it is the

    government throwing the first punch. So the private sector is protesting by behaving like this. Don't give them reason to by allowing APARTHEID.

    People may behave badly buit we must be better than them. Take it that Allah tests us. Are we going to fail by responding with evil or teach our attackers good by reacting with kindness that will shame them? The onus is upon the host race and the one always wrong will be Goliath, never David. So if Malays are not

    treated equally in India or China, fully expect me to advocate that they be treated equally as well, because it Existential Angst and Fear are Human Conditions that affect everyone and I considering myself better than everyone else would not want to fuel that hated by not gibving way where I can, in the loudaspeaker vs.

    voice example for instance (it is not taboo to use voice prayer and make everyone so much happier), or ending APARTHEID for equality or taking down Pam's registration for a later court case than tasering her. We want to be right not wrong and must weigh the possibilities and flexibilities before condemning any party.

    Is there not enough space and leeway for all to express themselves so long as we try to find it?

    Try this link and see some ideas on how an extremely diverse society can exist and that even Hudud can exists beside Haram non-Muslims and even LGBT and others. It's everone's world, try to share it wheever possible. There is space for sure. So tell me if the ways suggested in the site will intrude on you unreassonably?

    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=31851551532…

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts, because these conversations show a true desire for communication between diverse ethnicities and faiths despite differences, and an attempt encompass the fullest diversity of mankind's expression.

27. @PamPamPuki…if this means that anyone who doesn’t agree with these so called “evolved” and “intelligent” being’s view of how the world should work to their liking is labeled stupid and uncivilized, then I’d rather not let arrogant people like these get anywhere near political power.

    (1) Your word against ours. But facts do not lie.

    I feel that these types of people – and yes, to a certain extent websites such as these – view things only the way they want it to. It’s either you agree with what they say…or they call you all sorts of names and belittle you and attempt to make you feel inferior by throwing big words and jargons and pipe dreams like “freedom” from an imaginary oppresive Apartheid or whatnot. They romanticize themselves as “freedom fighters”, when in fact it is far removed from reality. So consumed are they by this fantasy that they fail to realize that what they are doing…it’s pretty much the same tactic used by the very same institution they are against.

    (2) We have not been doing the name calling. How is it far removed especially the fact that there is space for everyone to live as they will?

    I don’t know what sort of naivete people like Pam or AgreeToDisagree suffers from, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to obtain TRUE and UNFETTERED freedom. To obtain the freedom and justice and rights as envisioned by AgreeToDisagree means subjugating the rights of other people (in this case, maybe the entire Malaysian Malay population, who knows?). Is THAT, then, fair?

    (3) See Ans.2. You can misconstrue this as anything but logic says otherwise, demogoguery cannot change facts. The ones in fact doing subjugating are the ones insisting there is no true freedom.

    What is so wrong with CONFORMITY to certain core values of the nation you happen to live in? What’s wrong with expecting every Malaysian to understand, and converse in, Bahasa Malaysia? It does not subjugate the right for a citizen to speak in any other language, by the way…it just generally makes things easier for everyone…it provides, in some small way, a shared tool of communication, a shared culture, a shared national identity, a shared bond of which we can identify each other in this huge world…What is wrong with that?

    (4) Nothing is wrong with that. Conversely people have a right to not conform as well. It is a free world save by the force of arms you allude here. Rule of mob is not democracy. These bonds as you describe are but mere shackles the UMNO-putra and lapdogs as yourself wish to put on everyone so you can parasite off them. We'd sooner vote UMNO-BN to hell.

    Stop imagining the Government of the day as the “Evil Oppresive Subjugating Empire” that you have every right to destroy by any means possible. Life is not as fatalistic as that. Wake up and actually SEE reality around you. Yes, our government institutions aren’t perfect. THERE IS NO PERFECT FORM OF MAN-MADE GOVERNANCE! If people like AgreetoDisagree and Pamela Lim were in power, people like me and everyone else who says (and rightly so) that Pamela Lim is a stupid person who deserves to be excluded from future contributions to humanity’s gene pool would undoubtedly be ostracized, possibly even put in “preventive detention”, if not outright shot. They would deny this, but then again, so do the Government of the day.

    (5) Insisting something is truth does not make it the truth. Who is destroying anything? Your own weakness makes you think everything is destroyed because you wish to oppress people and cannot. We are free human beings, you can oppress yourself if you want to oppress so much. We will free ourselves because we want to free so much.

    It’s people like these, who egg on and provoke overworked, tired and under-appreciated uniformed men at stupid shallow rallies or vigils for “peace”, that make life difficult for everyone else. I’m just a normal guy wanting to make my way in the world. Every single day I mingle with my countrymen of different races and they’re doing the same. We get along fine. Life may not be perfect, but we don’t WHINE and COMPLAIN or PROVOKE the establishment because of it. If we want something, we WORK for it. We live in dignity. We know and accept that there are injustices, and we try in small ways to give comfort to the needy.

    (6) Who's been egging? In every instance I have shown the most respect to PDRM though Pam was too jittery in the vid. We know BUT WILL NEVER accept that there are injustices. You lapdogs think that a different law applies to you? Just the kind of unprincipled citizen the world can do without.

    We pay taxes too, probably significantly more than people like Pam or AgreeToDisagree who complain about everything the Government is doing. We are the silent majority. The ones who know that, YES, there’s a LOT of things wrong with this country…but there are also things that we’ve got RIGHT!

    (7) After stealing from closed tenders and backdoor deals or overinflated goods/services (chandeliers) in collusion with the corrupt government department? YOu are STEALING from the citizens and will be exposed and brought to court.

    Just because there’s one or two corrupt police officers out there, just because there’s one or two silly race-centric politicians in the Parliament (it doesn’t matter what race they are…in my book Ibrahim Ali and Lim Kit Siang are both in the same page when it comes to unashamed display of public stupidity), just because there’s perceived INJUSTICE…doesn’t give us the right to be rude to the police.

    (8) I don't like both. One for racism, the other for nepotism. You for insisting citizens have no right to address wrongs. You have the mentality of a paedohphile rapist. Keep things from getting public and keep abusing the people.

    It doesn’t give us the right to automatically ASSUME that everything the Government does is wrong.

    (9) Who is assuming everything the government does is wrong? It is you who are insisting that we are assuming. That again shows your lack of principles.

    It is astounding, despite throwing around big words and having the illusion of depth, how truly shallow these people truly are. You have no true understanding of the concepts you claim to uphold, and you have no true inkling of what is important to THE PEOPLE.

    (10) Freedom from APARTHEID is the first word you need to learn. As this is the first big word you can't understand.

    You just live in your own tight-knit, cult-like, urban little groups and you just arbitrarily judge what you feel is best for “The People”. And when people disagree with you…you do never “agree to disagree”, you will bully your way and twist people’s words and think you’ve done the world a service.

    (11) Who's being cult like when they insist that others can have no freedom to self determinism and freedom from apartheid and not have equality?

    In my view, all these people ever do is complain and make a fuss whenever things don’t go their way. They blame everything else – the Government is definitely on the blame list, as well as Other People Who Disagree – when things go wrong for them, but they’re too conceited to see fault in themselves. In their eyes, Justice and Peace and Truth BELONGS to them, and us normal people have to beg and plead to them for it.

    (12) Apartheid and Inequality does not go anyone's way. You seek to divide people so you can spinge off their conflict. Just like USA creating 911 for the military industry/contractors' benefit. We only have issue with the racists and lapdogs and QUISLING converts who insult Islam by conversion to better cement you lapdog status like you in government. Could some non-BN Mullah/religious bring this lapdog to the Syariah Court to determine if he is just a lapdog pretending to be a Muslim to access certain grey area benefits and determine if he is using Islam for his political ends or a true Muslim who converted out of love for the religion? I believe Zarul is guilty of insulting the Muslims, the Sultans and Malay people's intelligence.

    Well, you can take your ideals, shine it up really nice, and shove it. I am sick and tired of these so called internet crusaders claiming to fight for justice and human rights, when they themselves subjugate the rights of the very people they are fighting against.

    (13) Your lack of ideals and cynical abuse of the Islamic benefits and collusion with Malays against Malays will be shone up really nice and shoved. I am sick and tired of these fake-Muslim-quislings fighting to continue injustice and UMNO-putra and Lapdog rights, when they themselves subjugate the rights of the very people they are fighting for. Pretending to be a Muslim for financial benefits is the same as warring AGAINST Islam and treason to the Sultan. I hope you know what you and your backers are doing 'Zarul'.

    Stupid, stupid people.

    (Ans. 14) Stupid, stupid FAKE Muslim LAPDOG. You will get your head cut off for PRETENDING to be Muslim if you are not careful, nobody, least of all Muslims, can trust a person like you.

28. @PamPamPuki…if this means that anyone who doesn't agree with these so called "evolved" and "intelligent" being's view of how the world should work to their liking is labeled stupid and uncivilized, then I'd rather not let arrogant people like these get anywhere near political power.

    I feel that these types of people – and yes, to a certain extent websites such as these – view things only the way they want it to. It's either you agree with what they say…or they call you all sorts of names and belittle you and attempt to make you feel inferior by throwing big words and jargons and pipe dreams like "freedom" from an imaginary oppresive Apartheid or whatnot. They romanticize themselves as "freedom fighters", when in fact it is far removed from reality. So consumed are they by this fantasy that they fail to realize that what they are doing…it's pretty much the same tactic used by the very same institution they are against.

    I don't know what sort of naivete people like Pam or AgreeToDisagree suffers from, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to obtain TRUE and UNFETTERED freedom. To obtain the freedom and justice and rights as envisioned by AgreeToDisagree means subjugating the rights of other people (in this case, maybe the entire Malaysian Malay population, who knows?). Is THAT, then, fair?

    What is so wrong with CONFORMITY to certain core values of the nation you happen to live in? What's wrong with expecting every Malaysian to understand, and converse in, Bahasa Malaysia? It does not subjugate the right for a citizen to speak in any other language, by the way…it just generally makes things easier for everyone…it provides, in some small way, a shared tool of communication, a shared culture, a shared national identity, a shared bond of which we can identify each other in this huge world…What is wrong with that?

    Stop imagining the Government of the day as the "Evil Oppresive Subjugating Empire" that you have every right to destroy by any means possible. Life is not as fatalistic as that. Wake up and actually SEE reality around you. Yes, our government institutions aren't perfect. THERE IS NO PERFECT FORM OF MAN-MADE GOVERNANCE! If people like AgreetoDisagree and Pamela Lim were in power, people like me and everyone else who says (and rightly so) that Pamela Lim is a stupid person who deserves to be excluded from future contributions to humanity's gene pool would undoubtedly be ostracized, possibly even put in "preventive detention", if not outright shot. They would deny this, but then again, so do the Government of the day.

    It's people like these, who egg on and provoke overworked, tired and under-appreciated uniformed men at stupid shallow rallies or vigils for "peace", that make life difficult for everyone else. I'm just a normal guy wanting to make my way in the world. Every single day I mingle with my countrymen of different races and they're doing the same. We get along fine. Life may not be perfect, but we don't WHINE and COMPLAIN or PROVOKE the establishment because of it. If we want something, we WORK for it. We live in dignity. We know and accept that there are injustices, and we try in small ways to give comfort to the needy. We pay taxes too, probably significantly more than people like Pam or AgreeToDisagree who complain about everything the Government is doing. We are the silent majority. The ones who know that, YES, there's a LOT of things wrong with this country…but there are also things that we've got RIGHT!

    Just because there's one or two corrupt police officers out there, just because there's one or two silly race-centric politicians in the Parliament (it doesn't matter what race they are…in my book Ibrahim Ali and Lim Kit Siang are both in the same page when it comes to unashamed display of public stupidity), just because there's perceived INJUSTICE…doesn't give us the right to be rude to the police. It doesn't give us the right to automatically ASSUME that everything the Government does is wrong.

    It is astounding, despite throwing around big words and having the illusion of depth, how truly shallow these people truly are. You have no true understanding of the concepts you claim to uphold, and you have no true inkling of what is important to THE PEOPLE. You just live in your own tight-knit, cult-like, urban little groups and you just arbitrarily judge what you feel is best for "The People". And when people disagree with you…you do never "agree to disagree", you will bully your way and twist people's words and think you've done the world a service.

    In my view, all these people ever do is complain and make a fuss whenever things don't go their way. They blame everything else – the Government is definitely on the blame list, as well as Other People Who Disagree – when things go wrong for them, but they're too conceited to see fault in themselves. In their eyes, Justice and Peace and Truth BELONGS to them, and us normal people have to beg and plead to them for it.

    Well, you can take your ideals, shine it up really nice, and shove it. I am sick and tired of these so called internet crusaders claiming to fight for justice and human rights, when they themselves subjugate the rights of the very people they are fighting against.

    Stupid, stupid people.

29. @Zarul Wong…Pammy and all her followers just want attention and publicity…the whole thing is not about the PDRM but more political driven…even this website is nothing more like platform with hidden agenda to demonize our beloved institutions and to tweak our understanding of Rukun Negara based on their versions of so-called "justice, fairness and equality"…Deep inside their tiny subconscious mind they already decided these Rukun Negara or anything that bears "Malay made formulas" have to be eliminated or revised according to their desires…even though majority has embraced and chosen to be part of the system as Malaysian…

30. Dear Ms Lim,

    Greetings to you! Please allow the words of ancient sages to encourage you:

    Confucious said: You Go To Jail Bad Boy!

31. It is astounding how my language can be perceived as "vulgar" and "abusive". Have you read the rest of the comments? Oh well, troll is trolling, I suppose.

    Try harder, Simon. It's people like you and Pam who needs to get out of the gene pool. Embarassment to humanity, you guys are.

32. Zarul Wong's language is vulgar and abusive because his life is a wreck, marked by repeated failure at work and with people. His existence is completedly messed up by his character. Pam, ignore this mental case.

33. Dear Pamela Lim,

    I'm really trying to comprehend your efforts here. Unfortunately, it seems to me from the way you are handling the situation here that you are driven by purely your own misconceived prejudices.

    It's easy to hate a uniform, isn't it? Yes, our Malaysian Police haven't exactly had good PR for the last fifteen years or so, but that doesn't give people like you to dehumanize them the way you did. This is what groundless hatred does to us, isn't it? It makes us generalize and dehumanize anything associated with our object of hate. In this case, it's the police. To you, perhaps, any and all police officers are corrupt and no better than dirt. You forget that they are human beings too, they hurt and bleed just like everyone else. Just because they wear the uniform doesn't mean they deserve your venom. They're just doing your job. YOU are the one breaking traffic rules, yes?

    I'm looking at the whole thing (and with the hordes of colorful comments) and I can only see this: a couple of bumbling cops showing admirable restraint in dealing with patronizing, egotistical, misguided girl. If there are any victims here, it would be the two Polis Bantuan fellows you have harassed.

    Don't give us the bullshit about the whole "fake police" threat. If they truly were rogues pretending to be police officers, you'd be in a ditch somewhere right about now. Don't defend your utterly tasteless behavior with conjecture and plea to paranoia.

    Fortunately, save for a few stubborn people who can't seem to see through the whole sad effort at another (groundless) smear campaign against the police, a lot of netizens realize that you're just a whiny spoilt holier-than-thou person wanting attention. Well, you got it, babes. Good to know most Malaysians can see right from wrong.

    I truly, sincerely hope you learn a valuable lesson in humility and strive to be a better person by casting your prejudices aside and treat fellow human beings better.

    If you still feel that you have done no wrong, and that everyone here calling you stupid are beneath you, then I beseech you, dear miss, please do not breed. Our future generation will not benefit from your stupidity.

    Thank you.

34. Dear Ms Lim,

    Greetings to you! Please allow the words of ancient sages to encourage you:

    Ephesians 5:11 says, “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

    John 3:20~21 says, “For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

    Proverb 29:9 says, “If a wise man contends with a foolish man, whether the fool rages or laughs, there is no peace.

    A recent graduate from the Police Academy shared his thoughts: “A police officer with integrity has no intention to tarnish the image of PDRM. If I flag down a motorist, either I issue a summons or let him go with a stern warning not to repeat the offense. Human beings can make mistakes; true Muslims are taught to be forgiving because Islam is a perfect religion. We must ‘tepuk dada, tanya selera’ before accusing others of provocation and self beg the questions;

    (i) Is it rightful to spend more than 15 minutes to process a traffic summons and inconvenienced that motorist?

    (ii) Is it the standard police operating procedure (spop) to engage traffic offenders in irrelevant conversation?

    (iii) Is It part of the spop to proffer unsolicited information such as ‘Kesalahan ini boleh kena compound RM.300, tak boleh kurang.’

    (iv) Is It part of the spop to proffer unsolicited proposal such as ‘Macam mana nak selesai?’

    (v) The senior officers at Bukit Aman more than often appear on TV news and do not object to being recorded on video during news conference or on the beat. Why should I be flustered? I should be proud of being on TV news and be shown to all Malaysians as an example of a good police officer representing the PDRM.”

    A former IGP was met at the entrance of the Anti-Corruption Agency building and obliged the waiting journalists and camera men saying, “Why should I be worried, I have nothing to hide.”

    Sister, I have personally encountered honest, courteous and professional police personnel. Take care.

35. refering to AgreeToDisagree. Mental problemo

36. Yeah, not wrong but the whole fucking reasoning you gave – shows that you are really a sick man.

37. pam is equal to stupid.

    so,between stupid and pam has no different :p

    c'mon pam,just cut the crap..

    dont show ur stupidity loorr..

    kalau pandai org suke,tp kalau da pandai2… haih~

    poor u pam..i be ur family dont want to admit u as their family..

    mood : naugthy :D

38. budus..rakam penjawat awam tnpe kbenaran da sah2 slh..

    pam yg bangang..

    conteng buku saman??

    double the bangang..

    so..i should called u bangang-bangang..

    cari publiciti murahan,mst na 'market' la ni.

    hahaha..ckp tau undg2,tp sbenanye x..sje na buat2 kuang ajo.

    pam2..tuka kete n alamat sume..

    mst ramai xpueh ati..laen kli ckp b.melayu..

    b.o.d.o.h

39. @AR…totally agree bro…!!!!!

40. Yes @PamPamPuki,

    Those types of humans think they know everything about justice and fairness. What they actually need is to be given a re-education about nationalism, from scratch. Not from their jumbled up rojak, cakap tak serupa bikin perspective, but from a MALAYSIAN. Don't just whine about everything there is in this God given country, they must first CHANGE the way they think. And if they can't even get past speaking in Malay, then don't ever ever DREAM of your 1Malaysia. So buckle up your BM and start behaving like a Malaysian.

    *CLICK* Still need to watch over his crap though :P

41. yes brave n also dumb like u, y do ur post ur numbr like that….?!hahahahh

42. brave girl… next namewee (female version)? hope more of you, though!

43. You believe her written account…many lines are nothing but bullshit! She was lucky that these 2 junior police don't know their law well or else she would be in the back seat of a police car and be driven to a police station and lock-up. Best it's a weekend and she could only be bail-out on Monday. Then she knows…how to be a good citizen. Whom do she thinks she was! Nothing but STUPID!

44. @Can I Be Polis

    No point verbal sparring with @Agree To Disagree….he picks fight with everybody who disagree with him just to turn on Pammy…but i gotta tell you this AR really fight tooth to nail with him….i guess if he meet him outside this loyarburok site, that fella sure get spanking hard till his shit got out the other way round…through his stinking mouth…

    @AR

    i salute you for standing firm with your belief dude….our focus is Pammy and 2 policemen…de lady gets summon vs de dudes giving summon…@Agree To Disagree distracted the issue to politics…loyarburok site should banned him if this site is sincere in getting response from good citizen…

45. @Can I Be Polis

    Haha, I didn't know I had any sense of humor within me, let alone being hawt belting it out too :P But don't you think that the learned adversary, Mister Genius up there is hawter? Wait, I know the answer to that, its D-U-H right? LOL

    But does it matter if I'm not a Malay, really? We are 1Malaysians aren't we? :P

    *CLICK* Nope, that wasn't meant for you by the way. ROFLOL

46. I think the best thing to come out of this loyar site is the verbal sparring between AR and Agree To Disagree.

    AR if you are malay guy wow I think u r hawt.haha.you make me laugh.I would date you seriously.hehe

47. I think the best thing to come out of this loyar burok site is the verbal sparring between AgreeToDisagree and AR.I actually sat down and munched on some kuaci while reading the posts between you two.

    AR Imma a chinese girl and wow u really turn me on!u malay is it?wow! very hawt malay guy har u?

    Haha..

48. Did she ask what happens when she wants to settle the summon 'un-normally', since he was given an option?

49. An illuminating article on this issue … http://www.privacylives.com/issues-can-arise-from…

50. @PamPamPuki

    Ditto! Hahaha

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