Introduction: why I decided to write on why the Deity Allah is not owned by Muslims only.
I wrote the series of articles on Allah to put forward the Christians’ point of view on why they are entitled to use the word Allah in their Malay language Bibles.
I felt it was unfair for the people in power to use governmental clout to prevent Christians from calling their God Allah. And when these myopic politicians started to desecrate the Christians’ Holy Book that became the catalyst which really drove me to write so as to inform the public that it is not anyone’s right to claim ownership of an Arabic word which was in use by the Jews and the Arabs since the time of Abraham and his descendants, or even much earlier, i.e. from the time of the descendants of Shem the eldest of the three sons of Noah who were regarded as the ethnic group of peoples known as the Semites or Shemites who spoke a Semitic language. And Arabic and Hebrew are two Semitic languages. The Arabic word “Allah” meaning “The God” had been used by God’s people for thousands of years before Jesus was born and before Mohammad’s Call, the legendary revelation of Allah in 611 AD.
But then there are certain people who think that to mention that Christians worship the same God as Muslims do is sacrilege.
It looks like there are some Malay Muslims, and some other people of unknown faiths, who maintain that it is heresay to say in my articles that Christians worship the same God as Muslims do. They say Muslims worship only one God and that is Allah but Christians worship three persons called the Trinity.
But do these misinformed Muslims know what they are talking about when the word “Trinity” is not found in the Bible? Can they tell us why they say that Christians worship three persons when this is not even mentioned in the Bible? Or are these people just paying lip service to keep up with the Joneses to upstage the Christians’ faith without knowing the reason why they are doing that?
I think it is mean, unseemly and unbefitting of such narrow-minded Malay Muslims to decry the Christians, who believe in the same God as Muslims, that Christians are polytheistic by relying on a baseless assumption that Christians worship three persons. But how can anyone say that, when there is not even a title of evidence to support such an unfounded assumption? In truth, Christians are as monotheistic as Muslims. Indeed both faiths worship the same Deity who is God or Allah depending on whether your Bible is in English or in Malay or Arabic.
I find it most disconcerting as an observer, who is neither Christian nor Muslim, to see those narrow-minded followers of Islam defy their own Allah by not accepting the followers of Jesus who, according to the Quran, was created by Allah to receive His revelation and be His prophet.
The Quran says that Jesus was made by Allah to propagate the teachings of Allah
When the Quran has acknowledged that Jesus was created by Allah to deliver the teachings of Allah, who are they – I am referring to the narrow-minded Malay Muslims – to object to the Christians calling their Deity Allah? They should not assume that all Christians are English speaking! Many Christians in this country, especially those in East Malaysia, can only read the Malay Bible. English, which is a foreign language, is quite unfathomable to them. A rudimentary knowledge of English is not good enough to understand the Bible because the King James Bible is not an easy read.
I quote below from the Yusuf Ali Translation:
The Holy Quran (Yusuf Ali Translation)
Surah 19, Maryam (Mary)
27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: “O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
28. “O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!”
29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: “How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?”
30. He said: “I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
31. “And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
32. “(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
33. “So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)”!
34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, “Be”, and it is.
36. Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.
37. But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a Momentous Day!
38. How plainly will they see and hear, the Day that they will appear before Us! but the unjust today are in error manifest!
39. But warn them of the Day of Distress, when the matter will be determined: for (behold,) they are negligent and they do not believe!
40. It is We Who will inherit the earth, and all beings thereon: to Us will they all be returned.
41. (Also mention in the Book (the story of) Abraham: He was a man of Truth, a prophet.
The above is what the Quran says about Jesus; verse 34: “Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute.” and verse 35: “It is not befitting (to the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be’, and it is.” From this, it is clear that Jesus was created or made by Allah to be His prophet to perform a specific task which is to spread the teachings of Allah.
In these verses of Surah 19 of the Quran, Jesus said:
30. … “I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
31. “And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
32. “(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
33. “So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)”!
Thus, it is proclaimed in the Quran that Jesus the son of Mary is a statement of truth. The Quran also says that Jesus is a servant of Allah who gave a revelation to him and made him a prophet. So those who doubt, namely the aforesaid uninitiated Malay Muslims, the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament should hold their tongue for it is unbefitting of them to dispute what is said in the Quran!
So that when Jesus spoke to the eleven disciples after he rose from the dead; see the New Testament, Matthew 28 Verse 19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost;
Those misinformed Muslims should not doubt this statement of Jesus even though they may wish to doubt and imagine that Jesus was saying there are three persons to be worshipped in the Godhead. Those who doubt the teachings of Jesus should be careful of offending Allah for disputing what is said in the Quran that Jesus was created by Allah to propagate His teachings to all nations.
“In the name of the Father” means “In the name of God” because God is also called Father in the Bible.
Just as Allah is also referred to as “Lord” in the Quran; see e.g. verse 36 above: “Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord”.
“In the name of the Son” means “In the name of Jesus” because Jesus is also known as the Son of God in the Bible.
Just as in the Quran Jesus is the “son” made by Allah because Allah cannot beget a human son: see e.g. verse 35 above: “It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be’, and it is”.
“In the name of the Holy Ghost” or Spirit. In the Quran this is “an angel”; see e.g. verse 17 above: “She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects”. The continuing verses in Surah 19 of the Quran should be read as they are quite revealing:
18. She said: “I seek refuge from thee to ((Allah)) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah.”
19. He said: “Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20. She said: “How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?”
21. He said: “So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, ‘that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us’: It is a matter (so) decreed.”
22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
So there you have it, convincing proof from the Holy Book of the Muslims that Christians worship the same God/Allah as Muslims!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
About the Trinity
However, since there is so much confusion among the uninitiated, I think I should try to explain what the word “Trinity” is meant to convey. It is a term which is sometimes used by Christians to explain the Oneness of God. But for sure trinity does not mean three persons to worship, and it is not a word which is found in the Bible.
Christians worship only one God who is sometimes described by them as “God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost or Spirit” and these three are one. This is the most likely passage in the New Testament where I think the phrase comes from: Matthew 28 Verse 19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
Matthew 28 speaks of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. After Jesus rose from the dead he spoke to the 11 disciples:
16Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
But where does it say in the Bible that Jesus is part of the Godhead?
1 John 5: 7 says:
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And for proof of the deity of Jesus Christ, see John 1: 1:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The Word is clearly identified in John 1: 14:
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
And 1 Timothy 3: 16 states:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
It is quite obvious that “God was manifest in the flesh” above refers to Jesus.
Actually, if you know your English well, you will know that the expression Trinity or Holy Trinity does not mean the worship of three persons: God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. I have already explained in a previous article that the word “Trinity” is a euphemism for God. But it looks like I have been casting pearls before swine because the critics of Christianity in this country are unable to understand plain English. Anyway, I am digressing. The fact remains that the expression “Trinity” or “The Trinity” is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. This is because Christians do not worship three persons. They worship only one God who was the God of Abraham, and who is the same God the Jews and the Muslims worship.
NH Chan, a much respected former Court of Appeal Judge, is a gavel of justice that has no hesitation in pounding on Federal Court judges with wooden desks for heads. Retired from the Judiciary to become the People’s Judge. Wrote the explosive “Judging The Judges”, now in its 2nd edition as “How To Judge The Judges”. Once famously hinted at a possible “case match” between lawyer and judge by remarking that “something is rotten in the state of Denmark” (see Ayer Molek Rubber Company Berhad & Ors v Insas Berhad & Anor [1995] 3 CLJ 359). We need more people like NH Chan. That is why you should buy PASOC and his book.
You monkeys are like kids.. "my daddy's better than yours" "noo….., my daddy's better than yours"!
My question is this, what is the freakin OBJECTIVE?
way to go sam1528
Just saying ..
JAWI should recruit people with accounting skills and give them a crash course in forensic accounting. They ACTUALLY may do a better job then MACC or he Cops to curb corruption.
A former policeman fell to his death from the 16th floor of a hotel early today when he was believed to have tried to escape officers from the Federal Territory Islamic Department (Jawi).
Judge Chan ,
'The Trinity a Muslim Perspective' , the text of a lecture by Prof Abdel Hakim Murad (born Timothy Winters) from the Faculty of Divinity, ?Cambridge, United Kingdom (University of Cambridge)
Pls go thru it and I believe you will have a better appreciation of the difficulties the muslims have with regards to the Trinity.
Triniy from a muslim perspective
Katharina Sri (ex Noor Aza) ,
You being a convert from Islam to christianity does not even bother me. It does not even have any bearing on me.
It looks like you are one angry person but don't know what you are angry about.
When your allegations have been challenged , you don't seem to be able to respond with any facts except going into a bitter diatribe which you keep repeating word for word. Hmmm , is the product of the so called 'civilised with modern education' set of belief? Thank you but no thanks.
Why don't you calm down instead of jumping up and down like a half crazed chimpanzee and coherently articulate what is your issue one at a time. That will be the course of action taken by 'civilised people with modern education'.
You can start with your so called issue of Prophet Muhammad(saw) marriage to Aishah(ra) which you claim pedophilia. I have provided the points and references (inclusive of your bible) that it is not so. Challenge me.
NEW DELHI – Two Muslim mothers in a northern Indian town have been arrested on accusations they killed their daughters for dishonouring the family by eloping with Hindu men, police said Sunday. Newlyweds Zahida, 19, and Husna, 26, were strangled when they returned home after getting married to men of their choice, said Anil Kumar Kusan, a police officer.
Hey sam1528, you don't intimidate me, a convert from Islam to Christianity (Amen to that!), one bit! You keep lying, provide no evidence and ignore the truths, despite of academic references, including by your own Muslim imams! Get civilized with modern education – we will not be SLAVES to your savage Arabic Imperilism through Islam! And accept the truth like a civilized human being that Islam is created by the Arabic Pedophile rapist, robber, slave-owner (including sexual slaves such as young Jewish captive girls), and mass murderer of the Jews, Mohammed
Katharina Sri (ex Noor Aza) ,
Can you explain how the god as depicted in the hebrew bible is equivalent to the god of trinitarian christians? The jews will go ballistics if you try to push the doctrine of trinity onto them.
Lets ask Rabbi Tovia Singer about the doctrine of trinity in the hebrew bible (OT)
'..No area of Jewish literature could be more inhospitable to the Christian doctrine of the triune godhead than the Torah and the writings of its prophetic messengers. It is on the strength of these sacred texts that the Jew has preserved the concept of one, single, unique Creator God Who alone is worthy of worship..'
Rabbi Tovia Singer on Trinity
You want to talk about antisemitism? Look no further than the bible
joh8:39-44 '..If you were Abraham’s children..ou belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning..'
rev3:9 '..I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars..'
Do you know about the 'doctrine of perpetual servitude' being a church practice? Enjoy this very well written article by a non muslim.
'..The position of the Jews in Christian society was based on the Doctrine of the Witness. This belief stipulated that Jews ought not to be killed but allowed to live in a state of “perpetual servitude” to Christians; their continued existence as dejected serfs served as a continual proof of the triumph of Christianity over those who rejected the Messiah..'
Perpetual Servitude
I have already told you , there will be no end in polemics. As uncomfortable as it might be , I won't back down as you started it.
Katharina Sri (ex Noor Aza) ,
What kind of 'civilised education' are you trying to give me by quoting Dr. A Bostom? He is a medical doctor by profession but he does not have any qualification in Islamic / christian studies. Nobody will regard him as an authority. Why don't you look into the works of Prof Jonathan Brown , Prof Angelika Neuwirth who are the foremost in Islamic studies / history etc. Looks like scholarship and you don't mix.
I pity Abul Kasem too much to hate him. I fact must muslims are laughing at him. When did he become a muslim scholar or an ex muslim scholar? Just do a cursory search you can find articles written by lay muslims effectively refuting any and all of Abul Kasem's work. He has got no answers to the published refutation. You in your 'wisdom' appeal to him? Your standards is about scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Katharina Sri (ex Noor Aza) ,
I repeat my question. Where in the NT that biblical jesus ever claimed to be god and demanded worship? You keep on claiming he was / is god , give us the biblical proof.
You quote joh1:14? To make joh1:14 support the deity of biblical jesus , there must be proof that biblical jesus existed before he was born and he was / is called 'The Word'. Where is such proof?
However there is proof that biblical jesus was in god's foreknowledge or 'memra' or 'word'
jer1:4 '..The word of the LORD came to me, saying..'
jer1:5 '..Before I formed you in the womb I knew you , before you were born I set you apart ; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations..'
You are micro scoping the issue of 'progressive civilised living' by choosing the best from the bible and accusing the worst for Islam. I can play the same game also.
mat10:34 '..Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword..'
mat10:35 '..For I have come to turn a man against his father , a daughter against her mother , a daughter in law against her mother in law
mat10:36 '.. a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household..'
Does not look like 'progressive civilised living' to me.
You quote paul in gal3:28 '..There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus..'. However biblical jesus stated the opposite in mat15:24 '..I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel..'. Who do you believe? Biblical jesus whom you regard as god or paul who never met , talked , walked with biblical jesus.
Katharina Sri (ex Noor Aza),
Can you just take time off , calm down and show me exactly where I lied. You accuse Prophet Muhammad(saw) of pedophilia. However in reality he married Aishah(ra) and consummated their marriage when she attained puberty , 9yrs old.
You are a christian , your values is derived from the bible. eze16:7 – 8 is in support of Prophet Muhammad(saw) consummation of their marriage as Aishah(ra) had attained puberty by then. There is no record of any sexual activity between him marrying her and their consummation of marriage. In fact , the hadith you provided stated that she only moved into his household when she was 9. Your reference is in support of my argument.
Thank you for quoting Acharya S./D.M. Murdock. Do you know she is also the author of
(1) The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold
(2) Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled
(3) Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ
(4) Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
(5) The Gospel According to Acharya S.
Basically her books have the theme of biblical jesus being a myth , the christians copying from paganism of the 3 in 1 godhead , the bible is fiction and so on.
Lets do a cursory comparison of slavery in Islam and christianity as derived from our respective values (ie. Quran and bible):
Quran2:177 '..it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and FOR THE RANSOM OF SLAVES ; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing..'
exodus21:20 '..Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result..'
exodus21:21 '..but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property..'
Throughout his lifetime , how many slaves did Prophet Muhammad(saw) owned? This is a test of your so call 'capability to read history'.
The earliest companions of Prophet Muhammad(saw) in the likes of Zaid Harith(ra) , Salman Farasi(ra) , Bilal Rabiah(ra) were freed slaves. The second generation muslim scholars ; Ikrama , Tawus , Ata bin Rabah, Zaid bin Aslam, Hassan alBasri, Nafi , Ka’b al-Qurazi were also freed slaves. Ibn Sirin , Abu Hanifa were sons of freed slaves.
Can you name a couple of early church fathers who were freed slaves or sons of slaves?
Jay ,
Whether the news takes 5 or 10 years to filter thru , it would still be biblical isaac (40) married biblical rebekah (3).
Can I just add about the '3 year old' Rebekah? News don't travel fast back in the very old days (no internet, telephone, telegraph or poslaju). So a piece of news may take few years to reach. Go figure Rebekah's age then.. :-)
In Jesus, God became man: The Word became flesh” (John 1:14). God became visible, audible, touchable (1 John 1:1) and tangible by faith (John 6:69)……. – in Werner Gitt, Questions: I have always wanted to ask, Third Edition (Germany: Ebner & Spiegel, 2003), p.25
The first five Books which are part of the Torah of the Judaism, is a fundamental part of the Old Testament (OT) of the Bible because our God of the OT is the same God of the New Testament (NT) as in John 8:58 “I am telling you the truth", Jesus replied. "Before Abraham was born, 'I AM'" .
And we Christians owe it so much to the righteous Jews, including Abraham and the great Jewish Prophet Moses, that God gave us the Ten Commandments that founded modern civilized Western laws. Further, God came in human flesh, 'born' amidst the poor and oppressed Jews – thus, it shows how special are the righteous Jews to God. Thus, Christians have a lot to thank the righteous Jews for, or God wouldn't have come down to earth, so humbly and lovingly amidst us, to save us in a new Covenant.
Hey sam1528, so you hate the ex-Muslim scholars at Islam Watch, because they're converts from Islam, like me! Well, the ex-Muslim scholar, Abul Kasem who wrote the detailed history of Moahmmed's PEDOPHILIa CRIME is "Abul Kasem is an Bengali ex-Muslim and academic. He has contributed in Leaving Islam – Apostates Speak Out and Beyond Jihad – Critical Voices from Inside. He has also written extensively on Islam in various websites and is the author of five e-Books: A Complete Guide to Allah, Root of Terrorism ala Islamic Style, Sex and Sexuality in Islam, Who Authored the Quran? and Women in Islam. Mr. Kasem leaves in Sydney, Australia" – at http://www.islam-watch.org/AbulKasem/
Hate the truths do you – grow up!
CORRECTION: Hey Sam1528, your lies are pathetic especially with your justification on the way you normalize such savage Pedophilia crime that continues as if normal until today in Islam! Looks like you haven’t read the New Testament where our Judeo-Christian God, our Lord Jesus Christ came down in human flesh (he’s not your Arabicized Muslim prophet which you seemed to ignore), to offer Salvation (from the slavery of sin)in a new Covenant, which you don’t have a clue about and do not know how to relate to the Bible verses from the Old Testament to the new Testament, in context with each other. In Jesus, God became man: The Word became flesh” (John 1:14). God became visible, audible, touchable (1 John 1:1) and tangible by faith (John 6:69)…….
In the new Covenant with ever sinful human beings (all) our Lord Jesus Christ promotes the progression of civilized living to the next level that include being lovingly protective of children and women. In Matthew 18:13-14 Some people brought children to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them and pray for them, but the disciples scolded the people. Jesus said, “Let the children come to me and do not stop them, because the Kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these”.
In Galatians 3:28 : There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Thus, the savage Arabic Mohammed, amidst his evil Arabic culture could not tolerate such progression and went in defiance against our Lord Jesus Christ’s teachings and thus creating another ‘religion’ i.e. Satanic cult of Islam, to continue his Arabic culture’s evilness against civilized values.
Your lies are pathetic especially with your justification on the way you normalize such savage Pedophilia crime that continues as if normal until today in Islam! Looks like you haven't read the New Testament where our Judeo-Christian God, our Lord Jesus Christ came down in human flesh (he's not your Arabicized Muslim prophet which you seemed to ignore), to offer Salvation (from the slavery of sin)in a new Covenant, which you don't have a clue about and do not know how to relate to the Bible verses from the Old Testament to the new Testament, in context with each other. In Jesus, God became man: The Word became flesh” (John 1:14). God became visible, audible, touchable (1 John 1:1) and tangible by faith (John 6:69)…….
In the new Covenant with ever sinful human beings (all) our Lord Jesus Christ promotes the progression of civilized living to the next level that include being lovingly protective of children and women. In Matthew 18:13-14 Some people brought children to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them and pray for them, but the disciples scolded the people. Jesus said, "Let the children come to me and do not stop them, because the Kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these".
In Galatians 3:28 : There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Thus, the savage Arabic Mohammed, amidst his evil Arabic culture could not tolerate such progression and went in defiance against our Lord Jesus Christ’s teachings and thus creating another ‘religion’ i.e. Satanic cult of Islam, to continue his Arabic culture’s evilness against civilized values.
religion means war isit? …..anyone????
religionssssssssssss
Katharina Sri (ex Noor Aza),
continuation of part 1 of 2
However biblical isaac (40 yrs old) married biblical rebekah(3 yrs old). I assume consummation too place as there is no information that states otherwise. By all means , this is rape as she was prepubescent.
Do you know what was biblical mary's age when she married biblical joseph? Biblical mary was between twelve to fourteen years whereas biblical joseph(90 yrs).
'..a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old..'
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm
Whether its apocrypal , it is consistent with the historical facts that girls at time were given off in marriage upon puberty.
You have now retreated to asking whether biblical jesus raped anyone. I say no as he was never even married during his ministry. However there are ample biblical examples which support your notion of child rape from biblical isaac / rebekah up to the holy spirit and biblical mary.
Katharina Sri (ex Noor Aza),
4 of my posts has gone under awaiting moderation. I believe its the html codes causing it.
continuation of part 1 of 2
However biblical isaac (40 yrs old) married biblical rebekah(3 yrs old). I assume consummation too place as there is no information that states otherwise. By all means , this is rape as she was prepubescent.
Biblical mary (12-14 yrs old) married biblical joseph (90 yrs old). What do you call this hinging on your logic about Prophet Muhammad(saw) and Aishsh(ra)?
'..the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates..'
(google – catholic encyclopedia 08504a)
Whether its apocryphal , it is consistent with the historical fact that jewish girls are given off in marriage upon puberty.
Now you are arguing on whether biblical jesus raped anyone? I say no but there are ample biblical examples given which supports your notion of child rape up to and including the action of the holy spirit and biblical mary.
Katharina Sri (ex Noor Aza),
continuation of part 1 of 2
However biblical isaac (40 yrs old) married biblical rebekah(3 yrs old). I assume consummation too place as there is no information that states otherwise. By all means , this is rape as she was prepubescent.
Biblical mary (12-14 yrs old) married biblical joseph (90 yrs old). What do you call this hinging on your logic about Prophet Muhammad(saw) and Aishsh(ra)?
'..the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates..' ;
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm
Whether its apocryphal , it is consistent with the historical fact that jewish girls are given off in marriage upon puberty.
Katharina Sri (ex Noor Aza),
continuation of part 1 of 2
However biblical isaac (40 yrs old) married biblical rebekah(3 yrs old). I assume consummation too place as there is no information that states otherwise. By all means , this is rape as she was prepubescent.
Biblical mary (12-14 yrs old) married biblical joseph (90 yrs old). What do you call this hinging on your logic about Prophet Muhammad(saw) and Aishsh(ra)?
'..the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates..' ;
biblical Joseph 90 and biblical mary 12 to 14
Whether its apocryphal , it is consistent with the historical fact that jewish girls are given off in marriage upon puberty.
Katharina Sri (ex Noor Aza),
This is so laughable. Your reference is from the so called ex muslims (whom you've never met) whist them not even having a qualification in Islamic Theology.
Who is it? Abul Kasem from Islam watch? This is ample evidence that you have never read and understood the Quran , bible and its scholarship.
The hadith that you provided all states that Aishah(ra) married at 7 and the marriage consummated when she was 9. I provided the hadith that she herself attested that she has reached puberty when she was 9. Its ok by eze16:7-8 – your own bible
Just 100 yrs ago , in Delaware US , the age of marriage / sex is 7 yrs. '..American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven..' ;
age of consent about 100 yrs ago
That was 100 yrs ago compared to 1400 yrs during the time of Prophet Muhammad(saw). You cannot even refute plain simple facts.
Sahih Muslim Book 3, Number 0629 – so what if a husband and wife took their bath from a single pot? Is it wrong for a husband to fondle his wife? You need to give your brains a chance.
Where is the so called arab imperialism? You don't even now the nationalities / race of the persons mentioned being the sahabahs of Prophet Muhammad(saw). You are so convoluted that you cannot even separate facts from empty polemics.
Citing Prophet Muhammad(saw) at Arafah , his last hajj ,
'..All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action..'
farewell sermon
So much for your so callad 'Arab Imperialism'. It is very clear you have very little understanding of the Quran , bible , history and scholarship.
You claim you are capable to read history??
Is there any biblical passage that biblical jesus claim to be god and demanded worship?
Katharina Sri (ex Noor Aza),
You are so deep in polemics that you do not even consider history nor scholarship.
The bible in eze16:7-8 in context state that its OK for a girl to be married upon her reaching puberty. True , Prophet Muhammad(saw) married Aishah(ra) when she was 6 but technically the marriage was consummated when she hit puberty at 9. That means by the standard of the bible , Prophet Muhammad(saw) did no wrong.
eze16:7-8 (niv) '..7 I made you grow like a plant of the field. You grew and developed and entered puberty. Your breasts had formed and your hair had grown, yet you were stark naked.
8 “‘Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your naked body. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign LORD, and you became mine..'
However biblical isaac (40 yrs old) married biblical rebekah(3 yrs old). I assume consummation too place as there is no information that states otherwise. By all means , this is rape as she was prepubescent.
Biblical mary (12-14 yrs old) married biblical joseph (90 yrs old). What do you call this hinging on your logic about Prophet Muhammad(saw) and Aishsh(ra)?
'..the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates..' ;
Joseph 90 and mary 12 – 14 , subheading 'marriage'
Whether its apocryphal , it is consistent with the historical fact that jewish girls are given off in marriage upon puberty.
You want some more?
luk1:36 '..The Holy Spirit will COME ON you, and the POWER of the Most High will OVERSHADOW you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God..'
mat1:18 '..Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit..'
Before biblical joseph consummated their marriage , mary was already pregnant through the holy spirit. How was it achieved? Well the holy spirit 'COME ON' her and its 'POWER' 'OVERSHADOWED' her.
What mental imprint does it gives the readers? I don't know about you , to me biblical mary got pregnant as the holy spirit raped her. It came 'COME UPON' her with its 'POWER' 'OVERSHADOWING' her.
You want to engage in polemics , there is no end to it. My apologies to the christians.
To you Katharina Sri (ex Noor Aza) , I can go the full 15 rounds with you. Can you cope??
CORRECTION: Hey Sam1528, your lies about the verses in the Bible is pathetic – provide the evidence of the child-rape especially by our Lord Jesus Christ (our Judeo-Christian God in human flesh, not an Arabicized Muslim prophet) such as I provide you of Mohammed’s child-rape! But you can’t don’t you?!
Your lies about the verses in the Bible is pathetic – provide the evidence of the child-rape especially by our Lord Jesus Christ (our Judeo-Christain God in human flesh, not some Arabicized Muslim prophet) such as I provide you of Mohammed's child-rape! But you can't don't you?!
Here are more civilized education for you sam1528!
3. Also, such as the 17 year old beautiful Jewish Saffiya, who was forced to marry 57 year old Mohammed right after Saffiya’s husband, wealthy tribe leader father & uncle were savagely beheaded after being tortured with all the other Jewish men in extremely sophisticated and rich Khaibar – the last Jewish tribe (in what now became part of Saudi Arabia), mass murdered in the first systematic racial Genocide of the Jews, in order to create Nazi-like supremacist, racist and savage Arabian kingdom [see – http://www.andrewbostom.org/content/view/25/1/ or in the book by Dr. Andrew Bostom, The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism: From Sacred Texts to Solemn History, Reprint edition (Prometheus Books, 2008, New York) and at – http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_c…
2. At – http://www.islam-watch.org/AbulKasem/SexInIslam/s… and Sexuality in Islam, Part 4
by Abul Kasem
20 Nov, 2005
Child marriage and having sex with a minor
…..Here are two hadith from the Sahi (authentic) of all ahadith to confirm the marriage of Muhammad (pbuh) with a child who was still playing with her dolls when the Prophet of Islam took her to his house to consummate (to have sex with her) the marriage.
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311:
‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:
Narrated Hisham’s father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.
Here is how the Prophet used to have fun and sex with his child bride.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298:
Narrated ‘Aisha:
The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses).
Sahih Muslim Book 3, Number 0629:……
Educate yourself sam!
1. At – http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_c…
Islam’s Disturbing Legacy of Slavery
Sunday, 13 March 2011 01:41 Acharya S./D.M. Murdock
…..”Prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave-girls whom God has given you as booty…”
Quran 33:50
“Mohammed had many male and female slaves. He used to buy and sell them, but he purchased more slaves than he sold, especially after God empowered him by His message, as well as after his immigration from Mecca. He once sold one black slave for two…. His purchases of slaves were more than he sold….”
Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya, Zad al-Ma’ad (1.160)
“So Muhammad began seizing their herds and their property bit by bit. He conquered home by home. The Messenger took some people captive, including Safiyah and her two cousins. The Prophet chose Safiyah for himself.”
Tabari VIII 116; Ishaq 511
“We conquered Khaibar, took the captives, and the booty was collected. Dihya came and said, ‘O Allah’s Prophet! Give me a slave girl from the captives.’ The Prophet said, ‘Go and take any slave girl.’”
Sahih Bukhari 1:8:367
“…Khaibar is destroyed… Then the inhabitants of Khaibar came out running on the roads. The Prophet had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives.”
Sahih Bukhari 5:59:512…..
Hey sam1528, I’m against savage and primitive Arab Imperialism through Islam and I’m a bigot? Get civilized – hate free speech about the truths on evilness, do you? Especially Islam that is created by the Arabic Pedophile rapist, robber, slave-owner (including sexual slaves such as young Jewish captive girls), and mass murderer of the Jews, Mohammed? You expect civilized people like me to deny the truths – I empathize with people like you who love lies; but then, Islam normalizes lies, if not how can such truthful history be denied? Here, I suggest you educate yourself with civilized education instead of continuingly being brainwashed by Arabic propaganda lies through Islam; here read this historical facts – among this, Islam Watch is by ex-Muslim scholars who have studied the evil koran and Mohammed intensively.
By the way, sam 1528, you consider savage child-rape of nine year old Aisha (Moahmmed was 53), by Mohammed who called himself a prophet, as normal – what is wrong with you?!
Hey sam1528, I'm against savage and primitive Arab Imperialism through Islam and I'm a bigot? Get civilized – hate free speech about the truths on evilness, do you? Especially Islam that is created by the Arabic Pedophile rapist, robber, slave-owner (including sexual slaves such as young Jewish captive girls), and mass murderer of the Jews, Mohammed? You expect civilized people like me to deny the truths – I empathize with people like you who love lies; but then, Islam normalizes lies, if not how can such truthful history be denied? Here, I suggest you educate yourself with civilized education instead of continuingly being brainwashed by Arabic propaganda lies through Islam; here read this historical facts – among this, Islam Watch is by ex-Muslim scholars who have studied the evil koran and Mohammed intensively.
1. At – http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_c…
Islam's Disturbing Legacy of Slavery
Sunday, 13 March 2011 01:41 Acharya S./D.M. Murdock
….."Prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave-girls whom God has given you as booty…"
Quran 33:50
"Mohammed had many male and female slaves. He used to buy and sell them, but he purchased more slaves than he sold, especially after God empowered him by His message, as well as after his immigration from Mecca. He once sold one black slave for two…. His purchases of slaves were more than he sold…."
Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya, Zad al-Ma'ad (1.160)
"So Muhammad began seizing their herds and their property bit by bit. He conquered home by home. The Messenger took some people captive, including Safiyah and her two cousins. The Prophet chose Safiyah for himself."
Tabari VIII 116; Ishaq 511
"We conquered Khaibar, took the captives, and the booty was collected. Dihya came and said, 'O Allah's Prophet! Give me a slave girl from the captives.' The Prophet said, 'Go and take any slave girl.'"
Sahih Bukhari 1:8:367
"…Khaibar is destroyed… Then the inhabitants of Khaibar came out running on the roads. The Prophet had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives."
Sahih Bukhari 5:59:512…..
2. At – http://www.islam-watch.org/AbulKasem/SexInIslam/s… and Sexuality in Islam, Part 4
by Abul Kasem
20 Nov, 2005
Child marriage and having sex with a minor
…..Here are two hadith from the Sahi (authentic) of all ahadith to confirm the marriage of Muhammad (pbuh) with a child who was still playing with her dolls when the Prophet of Islam took her to his house to consummate (to have sex with her) the marriage.
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.
Here is how the Prophet used to have fun and sex with his child bride.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses).
Sahih Muslim Book 3, Number 0629:……
3. Also, such as the 17 year old beautiful Jewish Saffiya, who was forced to marry 57 year old Mohammed right after Saffiya’s husband, wealthy tribe leader father & uncle were savagely beheaded after being tortured with all the other Jewish men in extremely sophisticated and rich Khaibar – the last Jewish tribe (in what now became part of Saudi Arabia), mass murdered in the first systematic racial Genocide of the Jews, in order to create Nazi-like supremacist, racist and savage Arabian kingdom [see – http://www.andrewbostom.org/content/view/25/1/ or in the book by Dr. Andrew Bostom, The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism: From Sacred Texts to Solemn History, Reprint edition (Prometheus Books, 2008, New York) and at – http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_c…
Katharina Sri (ex Noor Aza),
Since you have the 'capability' to read history can you provide the historical evidence of your allegations. Anybody can say anything but proving it is a different matter.
(1) Ha ha , you call Prophet Muhammad(saw) marriage to Aishah(ra) rape? Lets examine it closer. Prophet Muhammad(saw) married Aishah(ra) when she was 6 and consummated their marriage when she was 9. Aishah(ra) considered herself a woman at that time '..When the girl reaches nine years of age, she is a woman. (Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Kitab: al-Nikah, Bab: Maa Jaa'a fee Ikraah Al Yateemah 'alaa al tazweej, Hadith no. 1027). Can you now provide a standard of marriageable ages of girls / women in history? Turning the tables on you. If you are a christian , you should know that the context of eze16:7-8 is that marriage (and I suppose consummation) when the girl reaches puberty is OK. Therefore by your christian values (per the bible) what is wrong with the marriage of Prophet Muhammad(saw) to Aishah(ra)? Refer to gen17:17 , gen22:23 , gen23:1 gen25:20. You will find that biblical isaac(40 yes old) married biblical rebekah(3 yrs old). By your logic / christian values per eze16:7-8 , this is rape as a 3 year old is prepubescent.
(2) Can you provide any historical fact that the young jewish girls were raped after the mass beheading. I believe you are referring to the execution of Bani Quraiza. Ok , who is the one that passed judgement? Whose law did they use per the 'charter of madinah'.
(3) Wanting to construct a pure arabian kingdom?? The earliest / original sahabahs of Prophet Muhammad(saw) were
(a) salman al farsi
(b) bilal rabah
(c) suhayb al rumi
(d) abdullah salam
can you tell us , for the benefit of those 'who don't have the capability' to read history their nationality or race.
You have exposed yourself to be bigot. The arabs are savages? If you are malay by race , your ancestors were considered savages by the highly civilised chinese / arabs some 800 yrs ago.
You are in a glass house. Don't throw stones
Appealing to the Quran / Bible by all means is correct way to go but there is a need to appeal to Quranic / Biblical scholarship. Appealing to mat28:19 , 1 joh4:7 , joh1:1 is about the worse as it gets.
Mat28:19 has been mired in controversy as some scholars admitted that its a later day insertion.Peake's Commentary on the Bible, 1929, page 723:
'..Matthew 28:19, "the Church of the first days did not observe this world-wide command, even if they knew it. The command to baptize into the threefold name is a late doctrinal expansion. In place of the words "baptizing… Spirit" we should probably read simply "into my name," i.e. (turn the nations) to Christianity, "in my name," i.e. (teach the nations) in my spirit..'
Cross reference that to Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:5, 1 Cor. 1:13, 15
Everybody knows that 1 joh4:7 is a forgery. The explanation by bart ehrman , a leading text critic , Bart Ehrman on doctrine of trinity
Appealing to joh1:1 and claiming that its proof of deity of biblical jesus is not accurate. 'Word' comes from 'logos' , a hellenised translation of 'memra' which is an aramaic word (biblical jesus mother tongue is aramaic).
'.."The Word," in the sense of the creative or directive word or speech of God manifesting His power in the world of matter or mind; a term used especially in the Targum as a substitute for "the Lord" when an anthropomorphic expression is to be avoided.
memra in the targums
This boils down to the misunderstanding of christians on how muslims interpret monotheism. Monotheism in the muslim world is the doctrine of 'tawheed' meaning 'the oness of god'. A good explanation of the doctrine of 'tawheed' is Quran112. We muslims believe that trinity is in the realms of theophany.
Saying it all , the arab christians have been using 'Allah' for more than 1000 yrs. Whether its right or wrong ….. no muslims scholars (classical or likewise) has stated that christians cannot use 'Allah'. By the consensus of scholars , we muslims are not in a position to say its wrong.
Yes, I'm a convert from Islam, but anyone who has the capability to read history of Islam and Mohammed, will realize that Islam is an evil Arabic cult, to promote by savage violence, of Arabic Imperialism. The Arabic Mohammed raped Aisha, his child-bride ie. SEX-SLAVE, at 9 years old, and then raped all the young Jewish girls, after mass beheading and robbing their Jewish husbands, fathers and brothers, in order to construct pure Arabian kingdom and Arab race, and legitimize his and his tribe’s evil and savage Arabic socio-cultural practices! How can anyone after knowing this truth, can even worship this son of the Devil, who dared to call himself a prophet? We will not be slaves to such savage Arabs!
Thus Islam’s god is the Devil!
I take you are someone who has converted from Islam into Christianity, then?
Don't lie as if Islam and Judeo-Christianity are founded by the same God! No, Islam is created by the Arabic Pedophile rapist, robber, slave-owner (including sexual slaves such as young Jewish captive girls), and mass murderer of the Jews, Mohammed; whilst Judeo-Christianity is founded on our God's SALVATION for all humanity from all kinds of evilness! And our shared Judeo-Christian God gave the Ten Commandments that founded civilized modern Western law and society – or we would still have Western civilization like the Roman barbarians who fed human beings to lions or crucifying rebels. Evil people have hijacked Judeo-Christianity like the evil priests but our God did not teach us to love evilness unlike in Islam! Thus Islam's god is the Devil!
1. Alif-Lam-Mim. [These letters are one of the miracles of the Qur'an and none but Allah (Alone) knows their meanings].
2. This is the Book (the Qur'an), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqun [the pious and righteous persons who fear Allah much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allah much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)].
3. Who believe in the Ghaib and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and spend out of what we have provided for them [i.e. give Zakat , spend on themselves, their parents, their children, their wives, etc., and also give charity to the poor and also in Allah's Cause – Jihad, etc.].
4. And who believe in (the Qur'an and the Sunnah) which has been sent down (revealed) to you (Muhammad Peace be upon him ) and in [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.] which were sent down before you and they believe with certainty in the Hereafter. (Resurrection, recompense of their good and bad deeds, Paradise and Hell, etc.).
5. They are on (true) guidance from their Lord, and they are the successful.
6. Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.
7. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allah's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment.
(Baqarah 1 – 7)
err…uncle chan. what do u really want to point with ur article actually? yes, muslims believe that our god is the same with jesus (peace be upon him)'s god when he was still within his material body. Not after the churches take over.
Anyway, what has that got to do with the word Allah? Well, I hope you keep on reading the Quran though.
Wow so clever! Bravo for this explanation — and from a someone who is neither or Christian or Muslim too!
Trnity or the Triune God is three God head in one.
God or Allah is the almighty! He is Elohim, Jehovah, Yahweh, Adonai. Each name signify a meaning. Example Christian who know God as Elohim, almighty God, may not have the revelation of Him as Jehovah – His nature…the revelational truth of God in the word of the bible. He is Jehovah Jireh – The Lord my Provider, Jehovah Nisi.etc….to Christians who know Him for His numerous names, and getting to know Him intimately. He is Adonai when Christian obey Him, His word in the bible.
SInce God is Elohim – The mighty God, no human can come before Him for His gloriousness is just too great for us to come before Him, as a sinful man. Adam sinned for not obeying Him in the garden of Eden. Adam's sin is in us, his descendant! we can't help it. satan had taken over the dominion of the earth, as Adam and eve had disobeyed God and listen to the serpent, the satan. the evil nature in men as a result will destroy men with satanic nature. God has to hatch a plan to redeem men from satan. He is love, yet judicial. His plan is to send His only begotten Son, Jesus to come and die for us, so that the price of sin through could be paid once and for all through Jesus Christ death on the cross!That was planned by God! He said in John 3:16 For God so love the world that He sent His only begotten Son, Jesus, to die for us, so that we may have life, and life everlasting! whoever accepts Christ as the Son of God shall be redeem from satan and will begin to live a Godly life, of love for God and people. That is the two greatest commandment in the bible! The word of the bible is Jesus, who is now at His Father's right handside in heaven.
The Holy Spirit, the 3rd God head, is promised by God that He would send to His children when Jesus went back to His Father. The Holy Spirit is a person that resides in Christian body. He is the annointing of Jesus in Christian. He is the power, comforter, healer, guidance, wisdom…..our revelational spirit to know more about God!
In summary, for those who still wonders what this trinity/ triune God is, a good analogy would be the Sun.The Sun is powerful (analogous to God the Father), but it is far away up in space. The sun gives us light (analogous th Jesus, the Son of God, the revelatonal truth in the bible – the word). The warm/ heat from the sun cause our body to feel the warmth (analogous to Holy Spirit – Christian can feel the power and presence of God when the Holy Spirit present). So, a simple analogy is that the sun has 3-in-one, jus like water can be in three states – liquid, ice and steam! It is to say, what is natural, is also in the spiritual.
Christianity is NOT a religion, but a relation with God the Father, Through the Son( Word), and reveal by the Holy Spirit (teacher)! God is love! Jesus loves all!
Shalom!
Bible says Abraham is the father of Isaac (promised by God), and Ishmael (illegitimate child borne of of the servant, Hagar.
Of Ishmael, here are the scriptures:
Genesis16: 12And he [Ishmael] will be as a [b]wild ass among men; his hand will be against every man and every man's hand against him, and he will live to the east and on the borders of all his kinsmen.
Abraham pleaded with God to accept Ishmael as his son, whom God did not agree:
20And as for Ishmael, I have heard and heeded you: behold, I will bless him and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly; He will be the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. [Fulfilled in Gen. 25:12-18.]
God re-iterated that His covenant is with Isaac and His descendants:
21But My covenant, My promise and pledge, I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year.
22And God stopped talking with him and went up from Abraham.
It is clear that from the lineage of Isaac came Jesus. God is a covenant keeping God. Jesus said John 14:6 (Amplified Bible)
6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me.
Hence, the Bible clearly stated that no one come to God, the Father, except by (through Jesus Christ).
Shalom!
blablabla~ on 13 May, 2011 at 6:05 pm
Exactly!!!…….it is just a concept….the Blind leading the Blinded…
doesn't matter what actually trinity is, the combination of what element. it still does not same to the concept of oneness (tauhid) of Allah
"There is no nas qat’i (conclusive/definitive evidence) from the Qur’an and the Sunnah on this matter. All the evidences put forward by those who permit it, do not show that it is permissible for non Muslim to use the word Allah. Since there is no conclusive evidence from the Qur’an and the Sunnah, this matter falls under zanniyyat, something which is based on human discretion. Muslim scholars need to base their argument on historical, epistemological, theological and semantic analysis. There will be right and wrong opinions depend on who has the strong argument. Definitely wisdom and in-depth analysis must be stressed, and not just literal interpretation. Although there is no conclusive evidence this does not mean that we cannot reach certainty in dealing with this issue."
"The fact is that the word Allah even though it was used before Islam, it has been Islamized, the meaning of it is no longer the same as before. By permitting non Muslim to use it we actually doing deislamization. We are reverting the course which was done by our Prophet. Hence, we will be responsible for making more Muslim become confused. Professor Wan Mohd Nor says the context of Arabs and the Malay world is different, non Muslim in our land especially did not use the word Allah before this, there is no such word in their language before, in the original work they called it Yahweh, why not they call tuhan Yahweh. Therefore, it is evident that this issue is brought to confuse the Muslims. They wanted Allah become the name of other gods as well. The fact is that our God is not the same as the god of Christianity, their god can have son, it is a humanized god."
"God before Islam is not only Allah, there is a lot of god during the jahiliyyah period. Allah was a general word. The specific names for their god are al-lata, al-uzza, al-manat etc. when Islam came it give new meaning to Allah. Islam did not introduce new word so that it will be easier to teach people about God. The word Allah before Islam is no longer the same compared to the one used after Islam has been established in the Arab country. Allah became the proper name and official name of the true God. Like the word Islam, literally it is submission but it become the official name of a religion. Non Muslim may acknowledge that God is the Creator, this is in the Rububiyyah level, but they deny the Uluhiyyah part when they commit shirk and believe in polytheism. A Muslim is the one who submit to Allah in the level of Uluhiyyah. At this level Muslims believe only Allah is the true God. They only follow His guidance."
"God before Islam is not only Allah,…..?"
Islam was not founded in 611 AD or by Prophet Muhammad.
Muhammad was the last or seal of Prophets.
'We make no distinction between one and another of His Messengers.' And they say: 'We hear, and we obey. We seek Thy forgiveness, Our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys.'" (Al-Baqarah, 2:285)
Say: "We believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham,
Isma`il, Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and in (Books) given to Moses, Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
[Al-Qur'an 3:84]
The Trinity is an analogous explanation for the positive, the negative and the neutral, without which there will be no energy flow through the universe…..just like electricity.
The Periodic table of elements explains the iconology of deities in all society. Polytheists understand that, and that is why they are very democratic. (democracy evolved from polytheist Athens)
Monotheist beliefs imbued a culture of an autocratic political system from which humans have not escaped even in this 21st century. Hence we are all suffering the after effects of these "Desert Dogmas"
Viva La Polytheists!!!!! In Them we see that the Gods are more like humans, – they eat, they drink, they love and make love….Gods and Goddesses all…. more humane than a cruel Deity who is just so hung up on whether we obey HIM or NOT…
:-)
NH Chan: "But it looks like I have been casting pearls before swine . . . . "
THAT, said it all . . . .
Where are ya, Justin? Me thot that you'd be the first to bodek.
"We may end up finding out that it did not matter a hoot to God if you were a Jew, Hindu, Christian, atheist, Buddhist, or Muslim."
This is essentially what NH Chan is writing about.
I'm on a journey to rediscover the basis of my following Christ. So, pardon my asking.
If you thought you have explained the concept of Trinity through your short piece, then, respectfully, sir, you have done the christian faith an injustice.
For centuries, scholars of all stripes have grappled with this concept and came out short. All of their thesis raised even more questions than they answer. Eventually, this theology gets accepted by people saying such truths will be resolved at a higher level. Yea, right.
Or, there are very many truths we will not be privy to, this side of heaven. My question is, what kind of God do we believe in whose truths cannot be understood, and must be accepted by "faith"? The line between faith and foolhardiness is thin.
You are right in asserting that the word Trinity is no where to be found in the Bible. It was a man-invented concept to try to force-fit a difficult concept into a neat little sermon package.
In the early church, there were much dissensions as to whether Jesus was divine or not. Would you like to show me where in Scriptures that Jesus himself say he is Divine? It was always been letters or passages written by folks AFTER Jesus died.
The verse Matthew 28:19-20 where Jesus was purportedly to have said "baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" seems to be out of place i.e. Matthew/mark gospels were written some 30-40 years after the death of Jesus.
Before Jesus ascended into heaven, the Spirit had not come yet. So, how would He have told the disciples to baptize in the Holy Spirit? Up to that point, there is no notion of a Holy Spirit.
Christians, Muslims, and Jews all make the same supposition that their notion of God is correct, and everyone else is wrong. Every one of them use their set of written material to justify their positions. Every one of them call their scriptures sacred. We can't all be right at the same time, no?
The Jews still await a Saviour. Christians say the Saviour was already here. And the Muslims say their Messenger was the last and bestest one, and Jesus was just one in a long line of prophets.
If one's idea of God is one of the Intelligent Being whose work is this Universe, then surely you can see that God is chuckling at us puny humans trying to fit God into our puny little minds using our puny little books.
Ever wondered in what language the story of Creation was written in, originally? Was it Sanskrit? Was it hieroglyphics? So, the word Trinity isn't terribly important. Would your faith be shaken if there was no such thing as a triune God?
Or, would your faith be shaken if there was NO resurrection. In the final analysis, that is where the Muslim faith departs from the Christian one. The Quran dispels the notion of the resurrection.
What are we here on earth for, then? I think it is to be of service to humankind. This is where you will find the most fulfillment and purpose. We may end up finding out that it did not matter a hoot to God if you were a Jew, Hindu, Christian, atheist, Buddhist, or Muslim.
Pardon me for my ramblings.
If Trinity is so important, why didn't Jesus or the Bible clearly explained about Trinity.
Please check what the bible said about Almighty Creator
Isaiah 46:9 — For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.
Hosea 13:4 — Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.
John 17:3 — And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
But why you follow Jesus, are you a Lost sheep of Israel?